# "Enuf is enuf. Enough is too much." Protestors at the Washington DC Spelling Bee **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 4, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913 "2010-06-04T12:27:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/21 "2010-06-04T19:12:27Z")
[QUOTE=Mark Twain] For example, in Year 1 that useless letter “c” would be dropped to be replased either by “k” or “s”, and likewise “x” would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which “c” would be retained would be the “ch” formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform “w” spelling, so that “which” and “one” would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish “y” replasing it with “i” and Iear 4 might fiks the “g/j” anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez “c”, “y” and “x” – bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez – tu riplais “ch”, “sh”, and “th” rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. [/QUOTE] [Cite](http://www.i18nguy.com/twain.html). ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/22 "2010-06-04T19:24:01Z")
Ah, Twain. The prankster. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/23 "2010-06-04T19:27:16Z")
As your cite points out (and as someone here on the Board has pointed out not that long ago) this piece seems to be misattributed to Twain. Twain _did_ give a speech on simplified spelling, but it’s substantially different. [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The\_Alphabet\_and\_Simplified\_Spelling](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Alphabet_and_Simplified_Spelling) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/24 "2010-06-04T19:31:21Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > How do we choose what **accent** the simplified spelling shoud originate from? > [@Sunspace](#): > > …which would represent all accents accurately, and thus change depending on which **accent** you were using… You mean which dialect? If the goal is to reflect the actual spoken language, we have the [IPA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA). But the purpose of a regular alphabet isn’t really to do that. It’s simply to convey ideas. The Chinese system of writing uses what are essentially pictures that have nothing to do with the spoken language. Of course you can argue that it makes literacy more exclusive, but that’s just as much a socio-political issue as it is cultural. It’s interesting to note that however “illogical” English spelling might be, it doesn’t prevent most people, with a modest amount of education, from becoming functionally literate. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/25 "2010-06-04T22:18:14Z")
[This rant is likely to be enlightening.](http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ortho.html) When I depose **Skald the Rhymer** and become His Universal and Catholic Basilikon Majesty I shall make the author my Plenipotentiary Linguistic and Stylistic. > [@](#): > > _Simplico:_ “Giving English a phonetic writing system, with one symbol for each sound, would produce a range of ridiculous ill-effects, such as the following: > [ul] > [li]Compound sounds like “J” (which is phonetically “D” + “ZH”) would have to be clumsily spelled out in full (so \ becomes «dzhey»).[/li][li]Trivial phonetic distinctions, as between the two kinds of “T” in “TEA-STRAINER”, or of “A” in “HATBAND” would require distinct spellings; and subtle dialectal vowel distinctions - as between Glaswegian and Bronx versions of “CAT” - would further confuse matters.[/li][li]“Do you want to?” would have to be spelt the way it’s pronounced - as one word, «dzhawonnuh?»”[/li][/ul] > > _Salviati:_ "You [%¤¶Ø]wit! Who said anything about a phonetic system? All we need is one that’s roughly graphemic (“one reading per grapheme”) and preferably phonemic (“one spelling per phoneme”) and/or morphemic (“one spelling per morpheme”). > > “In such a system, > [ul] > [li]The compound phoneme /ʤ/, which functions as a unit in the English sound system, can conveniently be spelt with the letter «J».[/li][li]Phonetic variants of /æ/ or /t/ are no concern of a well designed script; dialectal cases - especially ones as inconsequential as the one quoted above - are easy to handle (see below on dialects).[/li][li]If the individual words are pronounced in isolation as «du, yu, wont, tu», nothing is forcing us to put the reduced versions in the dictionary (any more than we need to put glottal stops in the alphabet).”[/li][/ul] Read the rest for more information on your future spelling system. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/26 "2010-06-05T15:46:04Z")
This is exactly how Americans came to misspell “colour” and similar words. As it isn’t broke, don’t break it. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/27 "2010-06-05T17:22:09Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > This is exactly how Americans came to misspell “colour” and similar words. As it isn’t broke, don’t break it. Thank you, William Randolph Hearst, for giving the rest of the English-speaking world something obvious to look down their noses at Americans for, in perpetuity. Simplified spelling is asinine, because words are not just a sound in the air, and their spelling bears information about more than the sound associated with the word. Adopting a simplified spelling scheme may make spelling simple words consistently easier for people with difficulties in this area, but this advantage is not worth the cost of severing the English language from thousands of years of development. With traditional spelling, someone coming across an unfamiliar word is in a much better position to make inferences about its meaning, because it’s the spelling that contains the information which facilitates semiosis, not just the sound. Switching to simplified spelling would be like mandating learning disabilities for your entire population. A horrifying idea, but then again I think Harrison Bergeron probably reads like a utopian fable to the sort of people who are saddled with the sort of intellect to which simplified spelling seems attractive. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/28 "2010-06-05T21:22:33Z")
Hefer? Bullshit. It shood be heffer. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/29 "2010-06-06T06:55:20Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Thank you, William Randolph Hearst, for giving the rest of the English-speaking world something obvious to look down their noses at Americans for, in perpetuity. Where are you from? Real Americans don’t care. Hell, most Americans don’t notice. > [@](#): > > Simplified spelling is asinine, because words are not just a sound in the air Yes, they are. The spoken language takes precedence. The spoken language _is_ language. Otherwise, languages without a written form wouldn’t be ‘real’. > [@](#): > > and their spelling bears information about more than the sound associated with the word. This is commonly a lead-off into the ‘etymological fallacy’, which is the unsupportable idea that the meaning of a word at some arbitrary point in the past is what the word ‘really’ means. In any event, it is more than a little addle-brained. > [@](#): > > Adopting a simplified spelling scheme may make spelling simple words consistently easier for people with difficulties in this area, but this advantage is not worth the cost of severing the English language from thousands of years of development. OK, you can study etymology. The rest of us will get on with it. > [@](#): > > With traditional spelling, someone coming across an unfamiliar word is in a much better position to make inferences about its meaning, because it’s the spelling that contains the information which facilitates semiosis, not just the sound. This would make sense if you were defending Traditional Chinese writing, where characters have semantic radicals in addition to phonetic ones and the move to Simplified Chinese would mutilate the key radicals. Making the same argument about English has obvious difficulties. > [@](#): > > Switching to simplified spelling would be like mandating learning disabilities for your entire population. Only for those who would be in the best position to recognize the sensation. > [@](#): > > A horrifying idea, but then again I think Harrison Bergeron probably reads like a utopian fable to the sort of people who are saddled with the sort of intellect to which simplified spelling seems attractive. I hesitate to ask what you think of those who speak, read, and write Spanish or Korean. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/30 "2010-06-06T07:03:08Z")
People should stop ghotiing around for solutions, and just learn to be happy in the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/31 "2010-06-06T08:45:58Z")
I’m willing to share my welf wit anyone wit big tits. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/32 "2010-06-06T10:22:29Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I’m willing to share my welf wit anyone wit big tits. I believe the original Cicero of antiquity said the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/33 "2010-06-06T10:34:13Z")
He was probably a pervert though. I am normal 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/34 "2010-06-06T13:13:21Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > wut u bunsh uv more ons. > [@Ludovic](#): > > You mean “morans”. > [@tdn](#): > > i gess i du. See, this just illustrates the problem with “simplified” spelling. **tdn** ’s original spelling is how I pronounce the final vowel in “moron”; **Ludovic** obviously pronounces it differently. So, how do you have a universal, simplified spelling that accurately reflects the pronunciation of English around the world? Just not possible - there will always be spellings that do not match a particular dialect. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/35 "2010-06-06T16:31:33Z")
We already have two systems, each of them quite good but for fundamentally different purposes. Conventional spelling is best for representing a word so that you can see their origins and see how words are formed from other words with prefixes and suffixes and other modifications. original and origins; say and says; indicative and indicate; creator creation and creativity. Phonetic spelling (the IPA being the best encoding scheme) loses that, but brings us accurate renditions of how a word would sound if spoken out loud. It would probably be easier if kids were taught IPA in first grade and phonetic spelling was accepted as “correct”; learning conventional spelling is more of a structural study of the English language. * * * wi ɑlrɛdi hav tu sIstɛmz itʃ ʌv ∂ɛm kwaIt gʊd bʌt fɔr fandǝmɛntǝli dIfɚrǝnt pɝpǝsɛz. kǝnvɛntʃǝnǝl spɛliŋ Iz bɛst fɔr rɛprizɛntiŋ e wɝd so ∂at ju kansi ∂ɛr ɔrIdʒInz and si haʊ wɝdz ɑr fɔrmd frʌm ʌ∂ɚ wɝdz wIθ prifIksɛz and sʌfIksɛz and ʌ∂ɝ mɑdIfIkeʃǝnz ǝrIdʒǝnǝl and ɔrIdʒInz se and sɛz IndIkǝtIv and InkIket krietɚ krieʃǝn and kriǝtIvIti fǝnɛtIk spɛliŋ ∂ǝ aI pi e biʔiŋ ∂ǝ bɛst ɛnkodiŋ skim luzɛz ∂at bʌt briŋgz ʌs akjurɛt rɛndIʃǝnz ʌv haʊ e wɝd wʊd saʊnd If spokǝn aʊt laʊd It wʊd prɑbǝbli bi iziɚ If kIdz wɝ taʊt aI pi e In fɝst gred and fǝnɛtIk spɛliŋ wʌz aksɛptɛd az kɚrɛkt lɝniŋ kǝnvɛntʃǝnǝl spɛliŋ Iz mɔr ʌv e strʌktʃɚrǝl stʌdi ʌv ∂ǝ iŋlIʃ leŋwIdʒ ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/36 "2010-06-06T16:31:42Z")
Naw. The Ludovic thing is just a meme from [Fark.com](http://Fark.com). And, really, there’s very little difference between the broad a [ɑ] and the open o [ɒ]\* in many English dialects. the problem is more that people want to interpet it as short a [æ]. \*I’m sure some people use [ɔ] for open o, but I’ve never heard anyone pronounce moron as [mɔɹɔn]. No, AHunter, you’d be making things more complicated, as there are so many different accents. Each accent would have different spellings for the same word. Do you know what [meən] means? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/37 "2010-06-06T16:53:25Z")
It would present the same problems that different accents present in spoken English, sure. > [@](#): > > Do you know what [meən] means? Depending on context, it could be Billy Bob McAllister referring to the male of the species or Susie O’Malley speaking of the native Central Americans who did the clever calendars. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/38 "2010-06-06T17:19:00Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Switching to simplified spelling would be like mandating learning disabilities for your entire population. > [@Derleth](#): > > Only for those who would be in the best position to recognize the sensation. **Derleth** , can’t tell if this is intended as a personal insult or not, so I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt. We’re in MPSIMS, so keep it civil, please. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/39 "2010-06-06T18:15:28Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Phonetic spelling (the IPA being the best encoding scheme) loses that, but brings us accurate renditions of how a word would sound if spoken out loud. Spoken out loud by whom? By a Canadian, such as myself, with a bland Prairies accent? by a person from the Deep South of the United States? By someone from London, England? by someone from Aberdeen, Scotland? by someone from New Delhi? Either you have wildly different phoenetic spellings to capture all of the different accents, which means that there is no longer a uniform spelling of the English language that all English-speakers can understand, or you have a “uniform authoritative phonetic” spelling, which is just as artificial as the current spelling and does not accurately reflect the actual pronunciation of English by the multitudes of English-speakers. [QUOTE=AHunter3] wi ɑlrɛdi hav tu sIstɛmz itʃ ʌv ∂ɛm kwaIt gʊd bʌt fɔr fandǝmɛntǝli dIfɚrǝnt pɝpǝsɛz. kǝnvɛntʃǝnǝl spɛliŋ Iz bɛst fɔr rɛprizɛntiŋ e wɝd so ∂at ju kansi ∂ɛr ɔrIdʒInz and si haʊ wɝdz ɑr fɔrmd frʌm ʌ∂ɚ wɝdz wIθ prifIksɛz and sʌfIksɛz and ʌ∂ɝ mɑdIfIkeʃǝnz ǝrIdʒǝnǝl and ɔrIdʒInz se and sɛz IndIkǝtIv and InkIket krietɚ krieʃǝn and kriǝtIvIti fǝnɛtIk spɛliŋ ∂ǝ aI pi e biʔiŋ ∂ǝ bɛst ɛnkodiŋ skim luzɛz ∂at bʌt briŋgz ʌs akjurɛt rɛndIʃǝnz ʌv haʊ e wɝd wʊd saʊnd If spokǝn aʊt laʊd It wʊd prɑbǝbli bi iziɚ If kIdz wɝ taʊt aI pi e In fɝst gred and fǝnɛtIk spɛliŋ wʌz aksɛptɛd az kɚrɛkt lɝniŋ kǝnvɛntʃǝnǝl spɛliŋ Iz mɔr ʌv e strʌktʃɚrǝl stʌdi ʌv ∂ǝ iŋlIʃ leŋwIdʒ [/QUOTE] So does this phonetically represent how the same passage would sound if I read it? and how it would sound from the person from the Deep South? and the Aberdoonian? and the Londoner? and the New Delhian? or is it just as artificial as the conventional spelling? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913/40 "2010-06-06T18:32:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Eh. Noah Webster had some similar ideas, and the spelling bee is a sensible place to protest this even if it’s a really stupid thing to get worked up about. When I saw the thread title I was worried the Westboro Baptist Church was going to show up at the Bee. Cripes, that was the first thing I thought of too. “Johnny can’t spell because God hates fags!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enuf-is-enuf-enough-is-too-much-protestors-at-the-washington-dc-spelling-bee/541913.md?page=3)