# Environmental Impact of Wind Energy (and excuses made for it) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2017, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156 "2017-07-13T04:39:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/81 "2017-07-17T16:21:14Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > So everyone who doesn’t agree with you is either a troll or a whiny little bitch, eh? I asked you once before if you were stupid and you just proved it. I’ll put you on ignore now. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/82 "2017-07-17T16:26:08Z")
Thank god for that. I am so relieved to know that I am stupid. If you were still reading what I write maybe you can tell me what you did mean in post #76, but since you can’t see me I shouldn’t bother, should I? Or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/83 "2017-07-17T17:38:29Z")
You do seem rather stupid, but I shan’t place you on my ignore list because nobody gets that privilege. Thus, you may remain confident your stupidity will always have a witness. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/84 "2017-07-17T17:52:26Z")
I’d love for someone to explain what stupid thing I have said THIS time. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/85 "2017-07-17T17:58:34Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > I’d love for someone to explain what stupid thing I have said THIS time. Forget it **kayT** , it’s Pit-town. And someone must’ve pissed in **Chimera** ’s corn flakes. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/86 "2017-07-17T18:05:24Z")
The OP posted a position that has been torn apart and attacked, but has not made any attempt to return to defend or explain this position. So either this person is unable to defend their position, or they’re just a troll. Trying to make this be something wrong with me is KayT’s game, because she’s a moron who can’t think logically and just loves playing the shame/guilt game. As this is not the first time this has happened between her and me and the last time was just as fucking stupid, it is clear that there is no point in me allowing KayT to continue this line of fuckery with me and I will ignore her from now on. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/87 "2017-07-17T18:39:45Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Also note, as evidenced in the photos, for (nearly) every wind turbine, there has to be a road cut out to get to it. > > Just sayin’. As do drilling rigs, pump jacks and well heads. Pipe lines etc. Of course wind and solar needs these roads too. And buried power lines. Nothing is a free ride. I suspect that as solar becomes more viable, and the tech comes along, we will have houses ‘shingled’ in it. The infrastructure is already there to share power. As far as the towers go. I love them. They are beautiful and a testament to mankind’s attempt to stop fucking up so much. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/88 "2017-07-17T19:19:21Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I suspect that as solar becomes more viable, and the tech comes along, we will have houses ‘shingled’ in it. The infrastructure is already there to share power. Already there. [Tesla Solar Roof](https://www.tesla.com/solarroof) and Power Wall combination. The solar collecting panels are only used in places that will get the most light. Non-collecting but identical looking panels get used for the rest. Charge the Power Wall (Battery) system and then use that first for power, only using line power when needed. I’ll be interested to see when they come out with cladding for larger buildings, although if you’re a 10 story building completely surrounded by higher buildings, you might not have as much use for this. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/89 "2017-07-17T19:28:27Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The OP posted a position that has been torn apart and attacked, but has not made any attempt to return to defend or explain this position. So either this person is unable to defend their position, or they’re just a troll. > > Trying to make this be something wrong with me is KayT’s game, because she’s a moron who can’t think logically and just loves playing the shame/guilt game. As this is not the first time this has happened between her and me and the last time was just as fucking stupid, it is clear that there is no point in me allowing KayT to continue this line of fuckery with me and I will ignore her from now on. You appear to be following me around telling me how stupid I am. I have never even paid attention to who you are until you started that. So please, start ignoring me NOW and I will return to ignoring you. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/90 "2017-07-17T22:36:11Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > You appear to be following me around telling me how stupid I am. I have never even paid attention to who you are until you started that. So please, start ignoring me NOW and I will return to ignoring you. Thanks. So now you’re mad that **Chimera** is explaining why you’re stupid, when you were asking just that, when just a complete reading of the original post and a bare modicum of critical thinking would have given you that answer before your first question. You’re not making yourself out to be Einstein, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/91 "2017-07-17T22:47:48Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Already there. [Tesla Solar Roof](https://www.tesla.com/solarroof) and Power Wall combination. > > The solar collecting panels are only used in places that will get the most light. Non-collecting but identical looking panels get used for the rest. Charge the Power Wall (Battery) system and then use that first for power, only using line power when needed. Why have a battery when you’re on the grid? Doesn’t the grid function as sort of a virtual battery; feed power to the grid when you have an excess, draw power from the grid when you need it. In theory, some power plant will have a slightly decreased demand, so it will burn less fuel, or less water will flow from the reservoir through the turbines, or whatever. In a way, you are storing power, you’re just not storing it at home. I did hear a podcast a while ago about how electric utilities meter this sort of thing, and it turns out they pay for the power at the same rate they charge, which is somewhat unfair from their point of view. If that’s changed, then it makes sense to have a battery, rather than to sell power and buy it back at a higher price. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/92 "2017-07-17T22:59:49Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Why have a battery when you’re on the grid? Doesn’t the grid function as sort of a virtual battery; feed power to the grid when you have an excess, draw power from the grid when you need it. In theory, some power plant will have a slightly decreased demand, so it will burn less fuel, or less water will flow from the reservoir through the turbines, or whatever. In a way, you are storing power, you’re just not storing it at home. > > I did hear a podcast a while ago about how electric utilities meter this sort of thing, and it turns out they pay for the power at the same rate they charge, which is somewhat unfair from their point of view. If that’s changed, then it makes sense to have a battery, rather than to sell power and buy it back at a higher price. Most of the problem is the excess fees and extra charges for pushing electricity back into the grid. Getting to be a serious problem. [http://midwestenergynews.com/2016/03/29/minnesota-co-ops-rolling-out-high-fixed-charge-for-solar-customers/](http://midwestenergynews.com/2016/03/29/minnesota-co-ops-rolling-out-high-fixed-charge-for-solar-customers/) ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/93 "2017-07-18T00:25:56Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > So now you’re mad that **Chimera** is explaining why you’re stupid, when you were asking just that, when just a complete reading of the original post and a bare modicum of critical thinking would have given you that answer before your first question. > > You’re not making yourself out to be Einstein, that’s for sure. Please highlight for me that explanation, which I have missed. ---
**Author:** ![Melcalc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/melcalc/32/468_2.png) [@Melcalc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melcalc)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/94 "2017-07-18T01:04:40Z")
Cats kill 1060x the number of birds that wind turbines kill, ergo, ban cats. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/95 "2017-07-18T01:18:01Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Why have a battery when you’re on the grid? Doesn’t the grid function as sort of a virtual battery; feed power to the grid when you have an excess, draw power from the grid when you need it. In theory, some power plant will have a slightly decreased demand, so it will burn less fuel, or less water will flow from the reservoir through the turbines, or whatever. In a way, you are storing power, you’re just not storing it at home. Baseload generation tends not to be very rampable. The more variable load from renewables, the more storage (or inefficient peaker plants) you need. > **[Grid energy storage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage)** > > Grid energy storage, also known as large-scale energy storage, are technologies connected to the electrical power grid that store energy for later use. These systems help balance supply and demand by storing excess electricity from variable renewables such as solar and inflexible sources like nuclear power, releasing it when needed. They further provide essential grid services, such as helping to restart the grid after a power outage. > As of 2023\[update\], the largest form of grid storage is ... ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/96 "2017-07-18T02:54:16Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Baseload generation tends not to be very rampable. The more variable load from renewables, the more storage (or inefficient peaker plants) you need. Is that an inherent, inescapable problem with power plants, or is it just something that we never needed to design for until now? As variable, renewable sources become more common, can we design other parts of the grid to better make up for the limitations of renewables; more efficient peaker plants, real-time demand pricing, sun and wind forecasting so we can predict the supply from renewables, etc? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/97 "2017-07-18T03:04:50Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Is that an inherent, inescapable problem with power plants, or is it just something that we never needed to design for until now? As variable, renewable sources become more common, can we design other parts of the grid to better make up for the limitations of renewables; more efficient peaker plants, real-time demand pricing, sun and wind forecasting so we can predict the supply from renewables, etc? It’s largely inherent. It takes a long time to spin up a large fossil fuel plant or nuclear reactor, and peaking loads have to be dealt with quickly. You can’t really speed that up very much - at the end of the day, it takes a huge amount of energy to get a base load generator spinning fast, and that energy takes time to assemble. Wanting to do it fast is like trying to build a bonfire without the kindling. The traditional way to deal with peaking loads is to spin up small (but less efficient) generators, usually gas, which can turn on and off relatively quickly. The problem with wind and solar is that as the proportion of these grows, peaking loads become more difficult to predict. If you’ve got megawatts of solar roofs in your town, and all of a sudden a cloud rolls in, you’ve got major problems. Same thing if you’ve got a giant wind farm and all of a sudden the wind stops, or all of a sudden it gets very windy. Storage helps to alleviate this by smoothing out the peaks and troughs. Charge up a battery when it’s sunny; use power from that battery when it gets dark. Your total draw on the grid remains low and relatively constant, and the batteries can be made smart to draw from the grid when demand is low. If you smooth out the demand curve and make it more predictable, you have substantially less need for inefficient peaker plants, thus burning even less fossil fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/98 "2017-07-18T03:35:49Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Please highlight for me that explanation, which I have missed. I’ll break it down slowly, with bolding, just for you. > [@Chimera](#): > > **I will note at this point that the OP has not posted in this thread since creating it.** > > Is the OP a cowardly little bitch who is unable to defend his/her position? > > Or a troll? That’s the explanation for calling the OP a cowardly little bitch or a troll, in the post that led to your question. Still following along? > [@Chimera](#): > > **The OP posted a position that has been torn apart and attacked, but has not made any attempt to return to defend or explain this position. So either this person is unable to defend their position, or they’re just a troll.** > > Trying to make this be something wrong with me is KayT’s game, because she’s a moron who can’t think logically and just loves playing the shame/guilt game. As this is not the first time this has happened between her and me and the last time was just as fucking stupid, it is clear that there is no point in me allowing KayT to continue this line of fuckery with me and I will ignore her from now on. There it is again, in plain fucking English. Done trying to play the victim of your own stupidity yet? ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/99 "2017-07-18T03:42:12Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > There it is again, in plain fucking English. Done trying to play the victim of your own stupidity yet? Anything you say. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156/100 "2017-07-18T03:59:38Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > It’s largely inherent. It takes a long time to spin up a large fossil fuel plant or nuclear reactor, and peaking loads have to be dealt with quickly. You can’t really speed that up very much - at the end of the day, it takes a huge amount of energy to get a base load generator spinning fast, and that energy takes time to assemble. Wanting to do it fast is like trying to build a bonfire without the kindling. > > The traditional way to deal with peaking loads is to spin up small (but less efficient) generators, usually gas, which can turn on and off relatively quickly. The problem with wind and solar is that as the proportion of these grows, peaking loads become more difficult to predict. If you’ve got megawatts of solar roofs in your town, and all of a sudden a cloud rolls in, you’ve got major problems. Same thing if you’ve got a giant wind farm and all of a sudden the wind stops, or all of a sudden it gets very windy. > > Storage helps to alleviate this by smoothing out the peaks and troughs. Charge up a battery when it’s sunny; use power from that battery when it gets dark. Your total draw on the grid remains low and relatively constant, and the batteries can be made smart to draw from the grid when demand is low. > > If you smooth out the demand curve and make it more predictable, you have substantially less need for inefficient peaker plants, thus burning even less fossil fuel. Thanks. I grew up in the northwest, so I still tend to think of hydro as being part of the mix; how is that in terms of meeting short-term drops in supply? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/environmental-impact-of-wind-energy-and-excuses-made-for-it/791156.md?page=6)