# EPA Poised to Declare CO2 a Public Danger **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188 "2009-12-06T13:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/21 "2009-12-06T19:48:49Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126003232518778287.html?mod=WSJ\_hpp\_MIDDLTopStories](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126003232518778287.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStories) > > I contend that this has absolutely nothing to do with the environment. It is nothing more than a (very large) tax increase, and greatly increases government’s power. It is a necessary part of the War on Capitalism. War on Capitalism, good grief. Turn off Fox. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/22 "2009-12-06T20:02:16Z")
The people waging a war on capitalism are the ones who oppose letting the free market have any say in carbon emissions. Obama’s trying to use the free market to solve this problem, but the very people who claim to support capitalism are hamstringing him. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/23 "2009-12-06T20:05:08Z")
Al Gore and his Church of GW acolytes should all commit suicide! Cool aid is available!😃 ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/24 "2009-12-06T20:10:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Say for example that President Bush was an incompetent and lousy leader. During President Bush’s term in office, he started a war and was unable to achieve any practical ends. > > Now you’ve just come in as president and have inherited this war. The war might be inherently unwinnable, or it might be the victim of an incompetent and lousy leader. Are you de facto in the wrong if you decide to see what can happen with someone effective in the leadership position rather than just ending the war immediately? Nixon ran as pro-war against the anti-war McGovern. You can spin it any way you want, but Nixon prolonged the war. Revisionism aside, conservatives of the time, both Democrat and Republican, supported the war and liberals opposed it. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/25 "2009-12-06T20:12:36Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Yeah, screw doing things as cheaply as possible. That’s too much work and it makes my brain hurt. Much better to impose an inflexible mechanism across the board. Fuck the market, it can’t get shit right. Big government is better, much more efficient than private enterprise. Damn right, that’s why we are kicking the economic ass of those European socialists. We fooled them big time; the dollars they hold are worth less now than when they bought them. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/26 "2009-12-06T20:16:37Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > It was a humorous jape or jest. I don’t really believe that Nixon possessed Mr. Bush. Also, please note that I said “fight unwinnable wars” not “start”. Nixon certainly fought the hell out of it, and it was on his watch that it was…ahem…not won Actually it was Ford. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/27 "2009-12-06T20:24:08Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Actually it was Ford. Actually, it was Chevy Chase. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/28 "2009-12-06T21:00:40Z")
> [@The\_Cleveland\_Steamer](#): > > Is there US carbon tax level that would have a measurable effect on the climate? What are the details of the tax? I admit I’m either not smart enough or studied enough to tell you an exact level. But it’s absolutely true that carbon taxes do and will push people towards: 1. Using less of the GHG-emitting resource by avoidance and efficiency improvements. 2. Substituting other activities or substances for the taxed item. Obviously there is a minimum level of energy that most people do need, but a large part of it is simple waste. I’ve posted details before of studies I’ve personally been involved with which claim we could reduce our electrical use by 20% nationwide and see little change in our standard of living, and that a 40% reduction is possible with a “manageable” reduction in standard of living. I freely admit that one person’s “manageable” is another person’s “no fucking way”, so obviously the definitions are fluid. And don’t even get me started on the incredibly wasteful mentality of “flee the scary black people to go to the suburbs, then drive 20 miles each day in a 15 mpg SUV because I have a Labrador and they need big cars.” Like, oh, all of my co-workers? I think it’s safe to opine that if we had to we could reduce significantly in other areas as well. There is still a lot of low-hanging fruit out there. I posted a while back calculations which showed the energy use from cable converter boxes alone across the entire US took an entire coal power plant to run. I mean, holy crap. I’m a conservative who believes in America. I believe America can rise to the challenge of tackling the GHG emissions problem, and kick its ass too, so long as we have a fair playing field and everyone else in the world is on our team. This may require an entire change in the “boo hoo, I’m a victim” and “let’s sue someone instead of working”-mentality SOP of thinking which has infected our Society since the 1960’s, but so be it. We _can_ reduce our energy use, we _can_ improve efficiency, we _can_ reverse AG climate change, if only we _will_ get our act in gear, make the hard and unpleasant decisions, and just do it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/29 "2009-12-06T21:02:26Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Yeah, screw doing things as cheaply as possible. That’s too much work and it makes my brain hurt. Much better to impose an inflexible mechanism across the board. Fuck the market, it can’t get shit right. Big government is better, much more efficient than private enterprise. I don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/30 "2009-12-06T21:27:03Z")
Taxing is the least efficient (i.e., it’s more expensive) method of reducing carbon emissions. It’s a big government fix with all of the problems associated with government mandates. It’s not without benefits and advantages, but they are far outweighed by the overall cost savings and lower impact on day-to-day life than a cap-and-trade scheme. As someone who “believes in America,” I would think you’d be just a bit more pro-market. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/31 "2009-12-06T22:20:47Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Taxing is the least efficient (i.e., it’s more expensive) method of reducing carbon emissions. It’s a big government fix with all of the problems associated with government mandates. It’s not without benefits and advantages, but they are far outweighed by the overall cost savings and lower impact on day-to-day life than a cap-and-trade scheme. > > As someone who “believes in America,” I would think you’d be just a bit more pro-market. First off, don’t put “believes in America” in quotes, it makes it look like you think I’m being disingenuous. And that will lead me to stop reading your posts. Second, can you explain to me in detail exactly why you feel a carbon tax is the least efficient method of reducing carbon emissions? For example, it’s fairly easy to put a 10 cent/gallon tax on gasoline, and it requires no complicated accounting or emissions trading market scheme. Taxing carbon in electricity is also easy - power plants and coal mines track every single ton of coal with fairly decent accuracy, so it would be easy to say “$5/ton of coal” as a carbon tax. Third, I fail to see why a carbon tax is anti-market (for lack of a better term) or less pro-market. The market responds to the carbon tax by creating alternatives and improving efficiency, etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/32 "2009-12-06T22:30:55Z")
This one is wise in the ways of the Forces of Darkness. We would be well advised to pay her heed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/33 "2009-12-06T22:34:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Um…Nixon _ended_ Vietnam. It was JFK and LBJ who started Vietnam. It was Nixon who sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks from behind the scenes in 1968, to make sure the war would still be there as an issue for him to run against in November. (See [_Nixonland,_](http://www.amazon.com/Nixonland-Rise-President-Fracturing-America/dp/0743243021) by Rick Perlstein.) And, having run and won on a very strongly implied promise to end the war, he kept it going throughout his whole first term. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/34 "2009-12-06T22:51:12Z")
I remember at the time having a very low opinion of him. Over the years, I’ve mellowed, and now just think of him as a vile pustule on a leper’s scrotum. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/35 "2009-12-06T23:31:09Z")
. reedit ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/36 "2009-12-06T23:44:15Z")
We had a discussion of the relative merits of a carbon tax versus cap-and-trade [just last week](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=540478), if you’d like to weigh in on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/37 "2009-12-07T15:23:33Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Second, can you explain to me in detail exactly why you feel a carbon tax is the least efficient method of reducing carbon emissions? For example, it’s fairly easy to put a 10 cent/gallon tax on gasoline, and it requires no complicated accounting or emissions trading market scheme. Taxing carbon in electricity is also easy - power plants and coal mines track every single ton of coal with fairly decent accuracy, so it would be easy to say “$5/ton of coal” as a carbon tax. “Efficient” in the economic sense. A simple tax may be easier, but it’s not cheaper. If I’m not mistaken, you have some connection to the energy industry. Are you familiar with the sulphur dioxide emissions reduction scheme? It was one of (if not the) first emissions trading programmes put in practice, and is widely acknowledged to have achieved emissions reductions at a fraction of the cost of a direct mandate (though, like global warming, there are random papers out there that dispute tradings’ economic benefit. Social benefits are another question). It’s basic economics 101: gains to trade. A central premise is that companies will face different costs to reduce. By allowing trading, you can get the same amount of desired reductions for the lowest (most efficient) cost. A secondary premise is that the bureaucratic overhead (from monitoring to brokering trades) is less than the aggregate amount of sales. There are lots of secondary benefits. For example, a trading regime provides incentives for a company to reduce below what is mandated. While the sum emissions reductions during that period will remain the same, the increased flow to R&D will make overall reductions less expensive. It worked for sulphur dioxide. There are billions of dollars of CO2 emissions trades taking place right now, supporting the contention that the cost savings are greater than the overhead. Reliance on taxation largely forgoes these benefits. It forgoes the advantages of capitalism and free enterprise. While there can still be an amount of technology trading taking place, the end costs will be much higher. This is not to say that taxation programmes are completely unnecessary. They can and should be implemented as complementary measures to a trading regime in order to fill gaps and missed opportunities and to close potential loopholes. However, it is economically nonsensical to spearhead reduction efforts via taxation and forgo trading. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/38 "2009-12-07T17:14:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > So your rebuttal is essentially the shopworn SDMB “Republicans are a bunch of meanies.” If the Democratic Party is unwilling or unable to stand up and do the right thing in the Senate when they have filibuster power, whose fault is that? Will anyone have the decency and honesty to admit that yes, the Democrats are complicit in the abuses of the Bush Administration if they _could_ have filibustered specific legislation, but _refused to?_ You bet they are. But do they deserve the primary culpability? Of course not - that would belong with the party that _advocated_ such abuses, not the party that couldn’t decide whether to try to stop them or not. And now that the Dems are in power, and most (but unfortunately not all) of them are trying to do something about climate change? The primary culpability lies with the party that’s unified in its opposition to such action, not the party that’s mostly trying to deal with the problem, but has just enough recalcitrant Congresscritters to get in the way. Yeah, the Dems deserve their fair share of the blame. But in both instances, it’s clearly the much smaller share. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/39 "2009-12-07T17:16:41Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Actually, it was Chevy Chase. Alert Secret Service agents seized the fork and wrestled it to the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188/40 "2009-12-07T17:25:39Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Al Gore and his Church of GW acolytes should all commit suicide! > Cool aid is available!😃 First, you probably meant to say “Kool-aid” specifically with a “k”, not a “c”. Second, it was technically “Flavor-aid”. The rest of your post is just as useless, so consider it taken under the advisement it deserves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epa-poised-to-declare-co2-a-public-danger/520188.md?page=3)