# Ephedra: Try it or Toss it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421 "2004-02-16T01:35:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/21 "2004-02-17T21:28:30Z")
> [@2Thick](#): > > The first thing I tell most people when it comes to chemicals and supplements is to do as a rat would do. Rats sample a small piece of something that is a potential foodstuff. If they do not react adversely within a certain time period, they go back and use more. No, the first thing you should do is refrain from giving any person medical advice, (such as, loosely interpreted, “try a little–and if it doesn’t kill you, try some more…”) because, unless you have the medical training, you _don’t_ know the best advice to give. And, as **C K Dexter Haven** has already pointed out, even if you are a doctor, you shouldn’t be giving out medical advice to people you don’t know on a message board. The best thing to do is have them refer to their doctors if they have questions about supplements, herbs and other medications. The quote from you, above, is extremely irresponsible and potentially deadly. You _don’t_ know what medical conditions the message board posters have or had, nor are you aware of the medications they are taking–or even if they’re giving you the entire list (out of forgetfulness, shame or other reasons). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/22 "2004-02-17T22:00:44Z")
> [@2Thick](#): > > Your writing style is very deceptive. You do not mention how many athlete deaths were attributed to ephedra. That is because there are no conclusive links. I’m not sure what would satisfy you as to “conclusive”. The FDA found the evidence compelling enough\* to order ephedra supplements pulled from the market. 64% of all reported adverse reactions due to supplements involve just one product - ephedra. I have already suggested you read the Rand report. [Here’s the link](http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/98fr/95n-0304-bkg0003-ref-07-01-index.htm). Try studying it before indulging in further innuendos. > [@](#): > > Analgesics (aspirin etc,) kill over 160,000 people per year alone. Without specifically commenting on the accuracy of this figure, aspirin and similar analgesics are approved drugs based on evidence of efficacy and safety. Ephedra products have not been tested for safety and have been shown to have minimal efficacy for weight loss and lack of proven benefits for athletic training and performance. **If a product is not medically useful, we should tolerate _no_ significant side effects, if it is to be marketed at all**. > [@](#): > > Of course there are more strokes associated with ephedra users. When you have a fat lazy overweight bastard overdosing (or even properly dosing) a substance that increases your heart rate, you increase the risk of blocking blood vessels. That is common sense. It would be common sense to have actual evidence that stroke victims were “fat lazy overweight bastard(s)”. Do you? > [@](#): > > The first thing I tell most people when it comes to chemicals and supplements is to do as a rat would do. Rats sample a small piece of something that is a potential foodstuff. If they do not react adversely within a certain time period, they go back and use more. This is a stunningly ill-informed and dangerous way to approach the use of supplements (having the user determine the “safe” period of time suggests a wonderful exercise in self-delusion). The lessons of steroid abuse alone should teach us the folly of doing this. Thankfully, pharmaceutical research and toxicology employ more rigorous methods. By the way, I fully understand **Gaudere’s** concern regarding this subject. There is plenty of underground misinformation regarding ephedra products being funneled to sales targets who are likely “stocking up” before the ban goes fully into effect. Hopefully, this thread can provide a little balance. \*based on _reported_ events. There is nothing in the law that mandates collection and reporting of safety/adverse event data by the supplement companies. ---
**Author:** ![2Thick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/a88e57/32.png) [@2Thick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Thick)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/23 "2004-02-19T18:47:04Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > No, the first thing you should do is refrain from giving any person medical advice, (such as, loosely interpreted, “try a little–and if it doesn’t kill you, try some more…”) because, unless you have the medical training, you _don’t_ know the best advice to give. I do have medical training. That is why I am qualified to respond. > [@](#): > > And, as **C K Dexter Haven** has already pointed out, even if you are a doctor, you shouldn’t be giving out medical advice to people you don’t know on a message board. I am not giving out any medical advice. I am giving out facts. > [@](#): > > The best thing to do is have them refer to their doctors if they have questions about supplements, herbs and other medications. It is quite naive to assume that a medical professional knows everything about supplements. Most of my peers know nothing more of ephedra than the average layman. > [@](#): > > The quote from you, above, is extremely irresponsible and potentially deadly. You _don’t_ know what medical conditions the message board posters have or had, nor are you aware of the medications they are taking–or even if they’re giving you the entire list (out of forgetfulness, shame or other reasons). You should really do some research before making unsubstantiated accusations. ---
**Author:** ![2Thick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/a88e57/32.png) [@2Thick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Thick)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/24 "2004-02-19T18:53:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The lessons of steroid abuse alone should teach us the folly of doing this. Thankfully, pharmaceutical research and toxicology employ more rigorous methods. Please fill me in on the lessons from steroid abuse. There is not one documented case of death from anabolic steroids (besides the requisite allergic reaction). Those who use ephedra tend to be overweight, hence the use of a catabolic substance. I am sure you know the physiology of a stroke and it is common sense to correlated higher blood pressure and higher body temperature with an increased risk of stroke. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/25 "2004-02-19T19:15:33Z")
> [@2thick](#): > > I do have medical training. That is why I am qualified to respond. First Aid course in high school, or shall we call you doctor? Regardless, you’re just coming across as aggressively ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![2Thick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/a88e57/32.png) [@2Thick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Thick)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/26 "2004-02-19T19:32:48Z")
In retrospect, toss ephedra if you: -are not university educated (or equivalent) -are not a competitive athlete -have not been training in the gym for at least 5 years -are at all overweight -are at all at risk for any congenital diseases -have any risk symptoms for any cardiovascular ailments (including pre-hypertension) -have not talked to at least 13 doctors and had a full physical by all of them -have no taken a basic physiology class -have not read every study ever published in ephedra So basically, what I am saying is that most people should never touch the stuff. I always make the false assumption that the average person is not ignorant and overweight (which he/she is). ---
**Author:** ![2Thick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/a88e57/32.png) [@2Thick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Thick)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/27 "2004-02-19T19:35:29Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > First Aid course in high school, or shall we call you doctor? Regardless, you’re just coming across as aggressively ignorant. Insults. The last bastion of the defeated. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/28 "2004-02-19T20:41:12Z")
I rarely post here, but this is something that is near and dear to my heart. Literally. A bit over a month ago, I was hospitalized due to supraventricular tachycardia imposed by atrial flutter. The underlying cause was ruled to be the ephedra based dietary supplement I was using, coupled with a lack of sleep and proper diet (I was hardly eating). Please be aware; I am not “ignorant about my body,” I’m a nurse. I’m aware of the effects that insomnia can have, as well as dietary habits. However, I’ve never had any heart problems, I have a check up once a year, there is no family history of heart disease on either side, and aside from being 40 pounds overweight, I was very healthy. Because I work in healthcare, I am very choosy about which doctors’ opinions I trust. My cardiologist was adamant: Ephedra was without a doubt the reason I developed this condition. Fortunately, it’s treatable with both antiarrhythmics and a procedure called “cardiac ablation.” However, I now have a heart condition. I will ALWAYS have a heart condition. And, it’s not worth the 15 pounds I lost quickly to have it. I can’t advise the OP’s friend, but I thought you might like to hear from someone who actually has first hand experience with this OTC “wonderdrug.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/29 "2004-02-19T21:05:03Z")
> [@2Thick](#): > > Insults. The last bastion of the defeated. SNORT! If you want to kill yourself by acting all doctorly and wise about you body, that’s no skin off my teeth. It’s a different matter entirely when you try to project your ignorance onto others. What _was_ that medical degree you’ve been alluding to? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/30 "2004-02-19T21:12:00Z")
> [@2Thick](#): > > Please fill me in on the lessons from steroid abuse. There is not one documented case of death from anabolic steroids (besides the requisite allergic reaction). You can’t be serious. Well, maybe you are. It is well accepted in the medical/forensic pathology literature that steroid abuse is associated with sudden cardiac death and death from other causes including liver failure secondary to peliosis and liver cancer. To quote you from one of many studies (go to the Pub Med site and search using the terms “anabolic steroids death” for many more): _“Hypertension, ventricular remodeling, myocardial ischemia, and sudden cardiac death have each been temporally and causally associated with anabolic steroid use in humans. These effects persist long after use has been discontinued and have significant impact on subsequent morbidity and mortality.”_ from Sullivan et al. in Progress in Cardiovascular Diseases, 7/98 pp1-15. Of course, apart from deaths of users there have been murders committed by people who underwent violent personality changes after taking anabolic steroids, but that’s probably not what you had in mind. > [@](#): > > I am sure you know the physiology of a stroke and it is common sense to correlated higher blood pressure and higher body temperature with an increased risk of stroke. I think you are mixing up so-called heatstroke and cerebrovascular accidents. **Maureen** , thanks for your post. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/31 "2004-02-19T21:43:15Z")
> [@2Thick](#): > > I do have medical training. That is why I am qualified to respond. What medical training? Do you have a degree? If so, what kind and from where? > [@](#): > > I am not giving out any medical advice. I am giving out facts. You most certainly are _not_ giving out facts when you write: > [@2Thick](#): > > The first thing I tell most people when it comes to chemicals and supplements is to do as a rat would do. Rats sample a small piece of something that is a potential foodstuff. If they do not react adversely within a certain time period, they go back and use more. That isn’t a fact by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it safe to tell people that. It’s about as medically helpful as an astrology chart. > [@](#): > > It is quite naive to assume that a medical professional knows everything about supplements. Most of my peers know nothing more of ephedra than the average layman. I didn’t say that a medical professional knows everything about supplements; I said that people should talk with their doctors if they have questions about supplements, herbs or other medications. Medical doctors are in the best position to know what’s advisable for _their_ patients, not someone who has, at this point, dubious claims of medical training and who moderates bodybuilding boards. And if the doctors don’t know, they can refer their patients to someone who does and not tell them to do “as a rat would do.” ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/32 "2004-02-19T21:53:11Z")
> [@SkipMagic](#): > > That isn’t a fact by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it safe to tell people that. It’s about as medically helpful as an astrology chart. I mean that it’s not a medical fact; it’s advice. I’m sure it’s a fact that you’ve actually told people this–I have no beef with that assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/33 "2004-02-20T00:17:00Z")
> [@2Thick](#): > > I do have medical training. That is why I am qualified to respond. Get a refund. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421/34 "2004-02-20T03:57:41Z")
Maureen, you were lucky. Several years ago friends of my parents lost their son. An All Star Athlete who looked like he might play pro-hockey. In shape. No history of heart problems. No family history of congential defects. His heart gave out in the middle of the night. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ephedra-try-it-or-toss-it/229421.md?page=1)