# Epic fantasies better than G.R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 12, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786 "2011-07-12T20:07:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/21 "2011-07-13T01:46:04Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > **Epic fantasies better than G.R.R. Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire** > > All of them? Really, man? You’re going to give an edge to Terry Brooks’ **Shannara** series :D? But I agree about the Amber series ( eta: though it almost kind of scuttles into the “epic fantasy” genre through the back door ). Zelazny is a big favorite of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/22 "2011-07-13T02:13:00Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > IAgain, it’s a short book, but Alan Garner’s \*The Weirdstone of Brisingamen \*is one of the best fantasies I’ve ever read. Yes indeed, also a favourite of mine… and it squeaks within the OP’s rules as it has a sequel in [The Moon of Gomrath](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_of_Gomrath), making that _two_ skinny books. 🙂 I didn’t comment earlier as I haven’t read GRRM (or at least this GRRM) so cannot say it’s “better than” but for epic fantasy I do think we need to mention David Gemmel, especially the [Drenai series](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drenai_Series). On the remote off-chance that you’ve never read Legend (the first of the series) I’d happily recommend it. (Along with quite a few other of Gemmel’s). ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/23 "2011-07-13T03:10:32Z")
Hey, I get to do this! I get to do this! I’ve never done this before. \ Ahem. \*I can’t believe no one has mentioned \*Glen Cook’s [Black Company series](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_4_23?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=glen+cook+black+company&sprefix=glen+cook+black+company). Grim, kickass, intrigues, strategies, and a few good card games. NB: I have not read any of the books in ASoIaF, so I can’t say if Glen’s stuff is better. But he writes some of the best stuff out there. (And I’ll second Gemmel’s stuff, and Alan Garner.) ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/24 "2011-07-13T03:14:32Z")
As the one who started the thread that inspired this one, I suppose I should post my list. I absolutely love E. R. Eddison and I rank his works first among epic fantasy novels, for their blend of adventure plotting, excellent writing, and effortless weaving in of philosophical and mythical themes. I also adore Tolkien–he comes second–and Mervyn Peake as well. Jack Vance is another favorite of mine, though I find his fantasy works to be hit-or-miss. His more numerous science fiction novels are where he really shines. Hugh Cook’s [_Chronicles of an Age of Darkness_](http://www.chroniclesofanageofdarkness.info/index.php?title=Main_Page) is an obvious competitor to Martin’s series. Cook’s work is extremely violent and grim, but focused more on the realities of life in pre-modern times, such as disease, wounds, infections, starvation, and so forth. The writing is quite basic and straightforward, as Cook simply lets events unfold rather than trying to push the reader in any particular direction. Madeleine Howard (pseudonym for Teresa Eggerton) is at work on a new series starting with [_The Hidden Stars_](http://thehiddenstars.com/books.htm). This is a ‘big magic’ series with lots of battles, major monsters, and all kinds of good, old-fashioned fantasy mayhem. Highly recommended. Lastly I’ll give a shout-out to [James Stoddard](http://www.sff.net/people/james-stoddard/Books.html), author of _The High House_ and _The False House_. Both are short, but absolutely excellent, fantasy adventures. Lots of intrigue, adventure, old-fashioned setting and characters, very well-written. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/25 "2011-07-13T03:16:58Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > I nominate R.A. MacAvoy’s \*Raphael \*trilogy and her two books about the Black Dragon. > > It may not meet your definition of epic, but Poul Anderson’s \*Three Hearts and Three Lions \* remains one of my favorites. > > Again, it’s a short book, but Alan Garner’s \*The Weirdstone of Brisingamen \*is one of the best fantasies I’ve ever read. > > It’s not a particularly short book, but Lord Dunsany’s \*The King of Elfland’s Daughter \*would have to be considered. > > Jack Vance would have to be considered with his Lyonesse trilogy and the Dying Earth books. So would Fritz Leiber’s Fafhrd the Barbarian and Grey Mouser books, at least the first five. The series went to hell after that. > > Gene Wolfe’s \*The Knight \*is much better written that ASOFAI. It certainly qualifies as epic. Someone else has read MacAvoy! I completely forgot about those books, but yes, I love them! And the Garner. And the Dunsany (which I suppose is epic, in the sense that it affects the world). I’ve only read a couple of Vance and Leiber stories; must remedy that. Gene Wolfe scares me, but maybe I should give him another shot. > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Roger Zelazny’s “Chronicles of Amber” series … the first six books … is far better, far more imaginative, than anything else I’ve seen, and yeah, LOTR is included. Nobody else has ever written anything close to it. I haven’t read the Game of Thrones series, and won’t because I like following the series not knowing what will happen. But given that the GoT TV series is generally accorded to be a good adaptation of the books, I’d have to say the Chronicles of Amber probably beats it, too. Heh – I forgot about Amber because the books are so short! But yes, definitely. (I still prefer Tolkien, but again, I know that people diverge wildly on him.) > [@MandaJo](#): > > Most of his best works are stand alone, but they are epic in scope, so I am going to suggest Guy Gavriel Kay. Like GRRM, he writes “low” fantasy–not a lot of magic, more alternate histories–but where his works are heart-wrenching, it’s because they are tragic, not just atrocious and extreme. The writing is more lyrical than say GRRM, which I guess turns some people off, but I really enjoy it. > > My favorite is _The Lions of Al-Rassan_, a loose retelling of the story of El Cid, but I recommend pretty much all of them. A lot of people really like \*Tigana \*(which is sort of Renaissance-Italy inspired. The \*Sarantium \*books are inspired by Byzantine history and are particular favorites of mine. I really like the Byzantine books, but I’m kind of a Byzantium fan in general. I have a hard time with the lyrical writing, though, which was why I couldn’t say I thought he was better than GRRM. I do like him better, though. And people keep recommending Al-Rassan to me, but I haven’t gotten around to it yet. > [@Apollyon](#): > > Yes indeed, also a favourite of mine… and it squeaks within the OP’s rules as it has a sequel in [The Moon of Gomrath](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon_of_Gomrath), making that _two_ skinny books. 🙂 Hee. And yes! ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/26 "2011-07-13T03:20:49Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As the one who started the thread that inspired this one, I suppose I should post my list. For that very reason I was hoping you’d come in 🙂 I’ll have to check those out. Besides Eddison and Tolkien (with you all the way, though I might reverse the order), I haven’t read anything on your list – I tried Cook but it was too grim for me at the time. Now I realize I could probably read it the same way I read GRRM – very quickly, and skipping over all the gore 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/27 "2011-07-13T03:31:10Z")
I haven’t read all the series mentioned in this thread, but I’ve read more than a few of them. Of the ones I’ve read, there’s been some great ones, but the only ones that I could truly put on par with Martin is Zelazny’s Amber series. Oh, how I love me some Amber. I guess if I had to choose, at this point, I’d go with Amber as being better than GoT, but only because it’s stood the test of time and GoT hasn’t. If, in another 26 years or so, GoT is finished and still holds up, I very well might change my mind. _off to set an Outlook reminder to check back in with this thread in July 2037._ ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/28 "2011-07-13T03:32:55Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > In addition, The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson seems very promising. I’ll second this one as a potential contender as well. This was a great read, and I can’t wait for the next one in the series, but once again, give it 20 or 30 years, and we’ll see where it stands. ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/29 "2011-07-13T03:40:51Z")
It’s hard to quantify ‘better’. But in terms of enjoyment I definitely enjoyed Katherine Kerr’s _Deverry_ series more. And has been mentioned upthread, Robin Hobb’s work, in particular the _Assassin’s Apprentice_ series. The Live Ships were still pretty good, but not as good I thought. My new favourite is Brent Weeks, and his _Night Angel_ trilogy. He gets bonus points in that the entire trilogy was released within the space of about a year. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/30 "2011-07-13T04:16:58Z")
I’ve only read the first novel in the Martin series, but with the success of the show I expect my library will buy copies so I might get around to finishing it. I was surprised that King’s _Dark Tower_ and Donaldson’s _Unbeliever_ didn’t get a mention. I’ve run into a lot of fans of both, although I’m not one myself. I am a fan of Gene Wolfe, and was happy to see _The Knight_ get a mention. I’d suggest the Latro and New Sun series, though. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/31 "2011-07-13T04:21:18Z")
Lord of the Rings. The Belgariad. The Dark is Rising series. Narnia. Discworld qualifies in part (it’s a wonderfully great fantasy series no doubt, just that only bits of it could be called “Epic”) Amber. Alan Garner just squeeks in, with two books. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/32 "2011-07-13T04:56:19Z")
I’m down with Earthsea, and the Long Price Quartet is wonderful (at least the first three are; our library system still hasn’t gotten the fourth), and Scott Lynch kicks all kinds of butt. Can’t stand Jack Vance, though; Terry Pratchett is fun but forgettable for me; Lord knows I tried and failed to enjoy Gormenghast; Erikson and Cook are just barely above mediocre in my book. The only epic fantasy I’d add is China Mieville, whose work is pretty uneven but when it’s good it’s very, very good. Lev Grossman reviewed Dance with Dragons this morning on NPR in a nicely spoiler-free segment. He said (paraphrased) that while Martin’s prose won’t win him any Pulitzers, his ability to plot is among the best in authors working today. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/33 "2011-07-13T06:47:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Lev Grossman reviewed Dance with Dragons this morning on NPR in a nicely spoiler-free segment. He said (paraphrased) that while Martin’s prose won’t win him any Pulitzers, his ability to plot is among the best in authors working today. Here’s the link for the [review](http://www.npr.org/2011/07/11/137652436/r-r-martins-sardonic-epic-for-an-ambivalent-age) ( thanks for mentioning it ). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/34 "2011-07-13T12:24:34Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > …I am a fan of Gene Wolfe, and was happy to see _The Knight_ get a mention. I’d suggest the Latro and New Sun series, though. The New Sun/Long Sun/Short Sun series might be what “scared” a reader above; I’ll read them again some day. But I’m finishing up my second reading of _The Wizard Knight_. I just got the new GRRM & will inhale it with glee. But I must read Wolfe slowly–those darned unreliable narrators. And the occasional glimpses of aching beauty. Oh, when Sir Able takes the shield he just won to the armorer for removal of the last owner’s symbol, he chooses a simple paint job, in green: > [@](#): > > There was one wanted three hearts 'n three lions, all on the one shield. We done it, but it cost the world. Anderson’s book is only one volume–but highly influential. As is Dunsany’s work. And one must meet Fafhrd & the Mouser–although their adventures are episodic, mostly originating as short stories Of course I love Tolkien but I really haven’t read that much “epic fantasy.” Although _The Kingdoms of Thorn & Bone_ by Greg Keyes impressed me… ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/35 "2011-07-13T13:04:52Z")
The best epic fantasy series I’ve read recently is **Brian Ruckley** ’s _The Godless World_ trilogy, starting with [Winterbirth](http://www.brianruckley.com/books/the-godless-world/winterbirth/). Alot of the others mentioned in the thread are pretty good, too, though! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/36 "2011-07-13T13:24:48Z")
I haven’t read GRRM, so I don’t know what the cutoff point is. But, in addition to some of the others already mentioned (and I think Tolkien is the gold standard), I think someone ought to mention Lloyd Alexander’s _Prydain Chronicles_. They’re for younger readers, and it’s been a while since I read the series, but I think it qualifies. And, Jonathan Stroud’s _Batimaeus Trilogy_ isn’t bad at all. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/37 "2011-07-13T13:27:18Z")
Dennis L. McKiernan’s Mithgar series. Are they derivative of Tolkien’s Middle Earth? Oh god yes. The difference is that McKiernan actually wrote a story while Tolkien wrote a travelogue. For those who like their stories complete, of the twelve or thirteen novels in the series, almost every mystery and question was answered eventually. He specifically wrote a book to cover them all. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Khendrask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@Khendrask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khendrask)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/38 "2011-07-13T14:45:54Z")
The first two trilogies of _The Deryni Chronicles_ by Katherine Kurtz. Then again, I still do like _The Belgariad/Mallorean_, and _Narnia_, and _The Hobbit / Lord of the Rings_. I guess I should include in my favorites list (though not exactly fantasy), Ken Follet’s _The Pillars of the Earth / World Without End_ too. I read a lot, and usually enjoy most of what I grab. _The Wheel of Time_ led me into some of Sanderson’s works, and I actually enjoyed the _Mistborn_ books. I did buy all of the GRRM _Game of Thrones_ books currently out for the kindle, and for once, I don’t seem to have a hard time putting it down. For all the hype, I can only think “Meh…”. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/39 "2011-07-13T14:52:41Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Roger Zelazny’s “Chronicles of Amber” series … the first six books … is far better, far more imaginative, than anything else I’ve seen, and yeah, LOTR is included. Nobody else has ever written anything close to it. I haven’t read the Game of Thrones series, and won’t because I like following the series not knowing what will happen. But given that the GoT TV series is generally accorded to be a good adaptation of the books, I’d have to say the Chronicles of Amber probably beats it, too. The first five, you mean, right? (The second five are readable but not very good). Going to disagree with _Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn_, which I found kind of dull. Also going to put in a word for China Mieville’s Bas Lag stories (_Perdido Street Station, The Scar, Iron Council_) - of the three, I’d say _The Scar_ was the best - which are crazy imaginative and have some interesting conflicts, though you have to be willing to deal with a certain amount of description of bodily fluids, which some people aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786/40 "2011-07-13T15:25:46Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Going to disagree with _Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn_, which I found kind of dull. That was generous of you. I very rarely quit a book or series partway through, and I quit that one about halfway through the second book. Just so damned boring. Oh, and Simon is lost and starving. Again. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-fantasies-better-than-g-r-r-martins-song-of-ice-and-fire/588786.md?page=3)