# Epic Story! "The Mystery Of The Transvestite And The Stolen Car "\[now a debate on slurs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766 "2012-06-30T02:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/121 "2012-07-08T13:18:20Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Would tranny be an acceptable word to describe straight men who pretend to be women on internet messsage boards? If they’re really just a straight male pretending to be a woman, then you can use another t-word: troll. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/122 "2012-07-08T13:45:32Z")
How the heck did we get onto the all derogatory words being the same hijack? That happens nearly every time any debate over what is or isn’t an acceptable term for a group of people in polite society. It’s easy: 1. Due to historical and other factors no two slurs have exactly the same impact because of their different development and past use, and current use by members within and without each specific community. 2. Who the fuck cares? Please stop using the term unless you want to keep offending people within that group or who support people within that group. Context also matters. I’ve been told repeatedly by some of the “smartest folks in the room” here that “cracker” isn’t all that bad and white people should just shut the fuck up and accept it because “nigger” is a billion, trillion times worse. But when “cracker bitch” is used against you by a large group of hostile black teens surrounding you and jeering at you late at night at a shopping mall when all you’re trying to do is walk to your car and go home, yeah it’s an offensive word. There’s a lot more TG/TS persons on the SDMB than Eve and Johanna, you know. I know of maybe a dozen who currently post daily and two dozen who post frequently. Over the years there have been many who came and went, as posters do. One of the reasons most of the current members aren’t posting in public as themselves is due to the casual use of words like “tranny” which make them feel unwelcome. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/123 "2012-07-08T14:35:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Hissyfit? Yes. Same category as a tantrum or a snitfit, if that helps you. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/124 "2012-07-10T05:20:55Z")
Folks, please listen to [Isis King](http://feministing.com/2012/07/05/video-janet-mock-and-isis-king-on-media-representations-of-trans-women/) on this point. All I’m asking is please listen to what she’s saying, hear her out. This is part of a conversation on trans women of color and she addresses the matter very cogently and is worth hearing. “To me, [tranny] is like the N-word. And people say, ‘Well, it doesn’t mean the same,’ and I say: ‘Well, I’m a black woman and I’m transgender so I’m telling you that when somebody says it, it has the same effect on me.’ Ru Paul is telling the world it isn’t that serious. But I am a transgender female and I’m telling the world that it is that serious. It’s not appropriate. There are plenty of other ways to make a joke about whatever than to use a word that hurts a group of people.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/125 "2012-07-10T05:23:18Z")
Even if it isn’t the same, it’s still hurtful, so why use it? (And **RuPaul** ’s a drag queen – I thought that was different, since he doesn’t always wear drag) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/126 "2012-07-10T13:24:08Z")
Well, ignorance fought. I didn’t know it was offensive and shall endeavor to avoid its use in the future (though to be honest it doesn’t come up much in conversation). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/127 "2012-07-10T13:40:44Z")
The primary reason why this slur is different from the others is that many folks have very little connection to the transgendered community and have literally no idea it is a slur. I certainly had no idea, before reading this thread. Not that I had any real reason to ever use the term. Not all shortening-type epithets are offensive. You would not want to use Jap for Japanese, but few would find using Brit for British or Aussie for Australian problematic. OTOH you’d have to look long and hard to find anyone who doesn’t know that nigger is an offensive slur. That being stated, once informed that those to whom the term refers find it derogatory, the appropriate response is to take note and cease to use it. For those in the transgendered community, unfortunately because their community is such a minority, it will I think take some time for knowledge that the term is an offensive slur to get out there. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/128 "2012-07-10T13:59:59Z")
I scanned to find the answer to my question, but didn’t see that it had been addressed. Can someone explain _why_ ‘tranny’ is offensive, exactly? I’ll accept that it is, though I was not aware that transgendered persons equate it with the use of ‘nigger.’ I have some idea why this is, but rather than speculate it would be helpful to have it explained. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/129 "2012-07-10T14:10:53Z")
For the same reason that any other slur is offensive. Because people refer to you by it in order to hurt you. There’s nothing inherently offensive about nigger or tranny or fag but generally speaking, one is not called nigger or tranny or fag except in unpleasant situations by unpleasant people who mean to insult, hurt and denigrate their targets. So, pleasant people avoid using those words in order to make it clear that their intent is not to insult, hurt or denigrate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/130 "2012-07-10T14:13:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Folks, please listen to [Isis King](http://feministing.com/2012/07/05/video-janet-mock-and-isis-king-on-media-representations-of-trans-women/) on this point. All I’m asking is please listen to what she’s saying, hear her out. This is part of a conversation on trans women of color and she addresses the matter very cogently and is worth hearing. Thanks for that link, **Johanna** –it was quite interesting to hear those two talk. A couple of points: 1. At some point during the interview, Janet (I think) mentions how when she’s at events, people will ask her things like, “How do you feel when people look at your Adam’s apple?” Isis rolled her eyes immediately at that, obviously familiar with such questions. But as tiresome as those questions might be, I think it’s natural curiosity. I confess that as soon as she said that, my eyes immediately went to her neck. 2. [check out her anecdote that begins here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rk2U0Lbv7g&feature=player_detailpage#t=197s). She talks about going on Howard Stern’s show and his use of the word “tranny.” Her response was to say, simply and calmly, “Howard, it’s ‘transgendered.’” (She may have said “transgender”; I couldn’t tell). And it worked: the shock jock used the word “transgendered” for the rest of the show. Obviously that won’t work every time, and obviously everyone isn’t obligated to be nice when someone’s using an offensive slur. It does seem to me that the nice, calm approach is likelier to work, though, no matter what you’re talking about. More flies with honey than with vinegar. (And in case folks missed it, I’m not talking about what a person’s obligated to do; I’m talking about what’s effective. I often rant with far less motivation than trans folks ranting about “tranny”.) 3. **Eve** , if you’re still around, and if you have links to the NYT pieces you were talking about, would you mind providing them? I’d be happy to send an email to NYT about their usage as well. ([my search](http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch/#/tranny/since1851/allresults/1/allauthors/newest/) only shows one such usage from the past two months, a reference to \*\*Fifty Shades of Grey’s “Anastasia Steele” as being [“a tranny stage name”](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/magazine/what-don-draper-and-christian-grey-have-in-common.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all), and I confess I can barely tell what the author’s getting at). If this is the only one, I’ll go ahead and pop off an email to them about it, but if there are more, it’d be reasonable to include the others. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/131 "2012-07-10T14:14:48Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > For the same reason that any other slur is offensive. Because people refer to you by it in order to hurt you. There’s nothing inherently offensive about nigger or tranny or fag but generally speaking, one is not called nigger or tranny or fag except in unpleasant situations by unpleasant people who mean to insult, hurt and denigrate their targets. So, pleasant people avoid using those words in order to make it clear that their intent is not to insult, hurt or denigrate. That doesn’t answer my question. You’re saying that it’s hurtful because it’s hurtful. Which I accept to be true, btw. I would argue that there _is_ something inherently offensive about ‘nigger.’ It was used as a derogatory term for a people who were considered, as a group, property or second class citizens for generations. While ‘tranny’ may indeed be used in a nasty fashion, it doesn’t have the mileage that ‘nigger’ does. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/132 "2012-07-10T14:25:33Z")
You don’t think transgender people have been treated poorly for generations? ETA: Whether or not a slur is offensive has very little to do with how people are treated. As far as I can recall, there are no negative stereotypes about Japanese people in the UK, and yet a Japanese person would still be rightly offended if a British person called her a “Nip”. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/133 "2012-07-10T14:27:06Z")
Rewatch the video that Johanna posted. A black transwoman says that as far as she’s concerned, the two words are equally offensive. There really isn’t a better metric than that. And, no, nigger is not inherently offensive. Words can’t be inherently anything. Their meanings are given to them by us as speakers, otherwise the whole idea of reclaiming words would be pointless. (I’m not sold on the utility of reclaiming words, but that’s a different discussion.) Tranny is hurtful because too many people use it in an attempt to be hurtful, to marginalize and reduce people to one aspect of their nature, an aspect, by the way, that many members of the community consider a temporary state and do not wish to be considered transmen or -women but merely men and women after transitioning. No one likes to be considered only on the basis of one characteristic. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/134 "2012-07-10T14:27:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You don’t think transgender people have been treated poorly for generations? Please quote the portion of my post where I said that. Don’t make me eyeroll. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Tranny is hurtful because too many people use it in an attempt to be hurtful, to marginalize and reduce people to one aspect of their nature, an aspect, by the way, that many members of the community consider a temporary state and do not wish to be considered transmen or -women but merely men and women after transitioning. No one likes to be considered only on the basis of one characteristic. That’s a good answer, thank you for elaborating. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/135 "2012-07-10T14:49:52Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > It was used as a derogatory term for a people who were considered, as a group, property or second class citizens for generations. > > While ‘tranny’ may indeed be used in a nasty fashion, it doesn’t have the mileage that ‘nigger’ does. The implication of the second statement is pretty clearly that transgendered people have not been treated poorly throughout history. I think it’s a little disingenuous to get irritated at RNATB for thinking that’s what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/136 "2012-07-10T15:05:06Z")
Especially when there are so many better reasons to get irritated at me! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/137 "2012-07-10T15:22:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > (And **RuPaul** ’s a drag queen – I thought that was different, since he doesn’t always wear drag) RuPaul is a gay male drag queen, not transgendered. Furthermore, they’re in a unique position with fame, money, etc. and not directly subjected to abuse they have to take from anyone, so their opinion on the matter is of highly questionable value. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/138 "2012-07-10T15:27:33Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > While ‘tranny’ may indeed be used in a nasty fashion, it doesn’t have the mileage that ‘nigger’ does. Personally, I don’t give a rat’s ass about comparing and contrasting the offensiveness of different slurs. Again, I wonder why this hijack always occurs where people try to weigh “nigger” versus “tranny” and conclude that unless one is close to or equal to the other in “severity” (however the hell that’s measured) then it’s OK to use one but not the other…all of which ignores the basic principle of politeness of “it doesn’t matter _how_ offensive it is; it’s offensive to transgendered persons, please don’t use it.” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/139 "2012-07-10T15:31:38Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Words can’t be inherently anything. Moist. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/140 "2012-07-10T15:52:51Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Personally, I don’t give a rat’s ass about comparing and contrasting the offensiveness of different slurs. Again, I wonder why this hijack always occurs where people try to weigh “nigger” versus “tranny” and conclude that unless one is close to or equal to the other in “severity” (however the hell that’s measured) then it’s OK to use one but not the other…all of which ignores the basic principle of politeness of “it doesn’t matter _how_ offensive it is; it’s offensive to transgendered persons, please don’t use it.” Totally agree. If a group of people don’t want to be described in a certain way, that’s good enough for me. Whether or not I personally think it’s ridiculous, and I don’t in this case, is irrelevant. I will note, that the vitriol and comparisons to other slurs were started by a particularly nasty post by a transgendered woman and that’s what set off the hijack. All that was accomplished by that nastiness was to piss people off and entrench the views of some of them. Minds were actually changed when reasonable people arrived later and provided cites and explanations with kindness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766.md?page=8)