# Epic Story! "The Mystery Of The Transvestite And The Stolen Car "\[now a debate on slurs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766 "2012-06-30T02:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/141 "2012-07-10T16:07:15Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I will note, that the vitriol and comparisons to other slurs were started by a particularly nasty post by a transgendered woman and that’s what set off the hijack. All that was accomplished by that nastiness was to piss people off and entrench the views of some of them. Minds were actually changed when reasonable people arrived later and provided cites and explanations with kindness. Oh, bullshit. People got angry and defensive when they got called on being insensitive. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/142 "2012-07-10T16:23:13Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Oh, bullshit. People got angry and defensive when they got called on being insensitive. Which of the first six posts showed anything resembling anger before the nasty seventh one? If Post #7 had been along the lines of: “Just so you know, the term “tranny” is considered to be very offensive to the transgendered community. I realize that the character in question is a transvestite and is not actually transgendered but it is still a term that should be avoided”, things may have turned out differently. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/143 "2012-07-10T16:27:00Z")
I didn’t say anyone was angry before the seventh post. I said they were insensitive and only became angry after Eve rightly pointed out the offensiveness of the ‘joke’. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/144 "2012-07-10T16:41:34Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I didn’t say anyone was angry before the seventh post. I said they were insensitive and only became angry after Eve rightly pointed out the offensiveness of the ‘joke’. As I have made clear, she is entirely correct that the joke was offensive. My point, which you seem to be avoiding, is that her approach caused more harm than good. She was in attack mode against people, some of whom were genuinely ignorant, and the whole n-word vs t-word comparison hijack could totally have been avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/145 "2012-07-10T16:46:37Z")
“I was going to be on your side until you got angry” is a lame excuse and not worthy of our time. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/146 "2012-07-10T16:51:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > “I was going to be on your side until you got angry” is a lame excuse and not worthy of our time. First of all, I am on your side. I hope that I made that clear. Some people will never be convinced. Those who can be, will be by at least starting with a reasonable explanation rather than by an equally offensive and bitchy attack. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/147 "2012-07-10T16:54:35Z")
If they need to be convinced by soft words and gentle tones, as opposed to logic and reason, then they’re not actually getting it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/148 "2012-07-10T16:57:56Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > If they need to be convinced by soft words and gentle tones, as opposed to logic and reason, then they’re not actually getting it. Yes! Exactly! They need to be convinced by logic and reason, not an offensive and bitchy attack. In the post right above yours I said “reasonable”, not “soft” or “gentle.” Where exactly is the logic and reason in “I get it–it’s funny because the faggot had sex with a nigger who was a tranny, right?” Here was my suggestion: “Just so you know, the term ‘tranny’ is considered to be very offensive to the transgendered community. I realize that the character in question is a transvestite and is not actually transgendered but it is still a term that should be avoided.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/149 "2012-07-10T17:01:09Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Here was my suggestion: “Just so you know, the term ‘tranny’ is considered to be very offensive to the transgendered community. I realize that the character in question is a transvestite and is not actually transgendered but it is still a term that should be avoided.” **random person** : You’re a complete cunt, hajario. **hajario** : Just so you know, that word is considered quite offensive in most circles. You should avoid using it. **random person** : Oh, I do beg your pardon. You’re a _total_ cunt, hajario. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/150 "2012-07-10T17:11:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **random person** : You’re a complete cunt, hajario. > **hajario** : Just so you know, that word is considered quite offensive in most circles. You should avoid using it. > **random person** : Oh, I do beg your pardon. You’re a _total_ cunt, hajario. Yeah, something like that, if the person honestly didn’t know that that was an offensive word. I am not trying to be difficult here. I am a 100% straight man and I have donated a lot of my own time and and money to LGBT causes (mostly marriage equity). It’s an important thing to me. I want minds to be changed. I have changed people’s minds. I think that my approach is better. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/151 "2012-07-10T17:15:01Z")
Fine, use your approach, but remember that as a straight man, you have no idea what it’s like to deal with this on a personal level every day and if Eve sometimes strikes you as abrasive, well, count yourself lucky that you don’t have to deal with people denying your basic qualities on a regular basis. It’s really easy to tell other people to grin and bear it when you don’t have to do any heavy lifting yourself. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/152 "2012-07-10T17:20:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **random person** : You’re a complete cunt, hajario. > **hajario** : Just so you know, that word is considered quite offensive in most circles. You should avoid using it. > **random person** : Oh, I do beg your pardon. You’re a _total_ cunt, hajario. ACT II **random person** : You’re still a cunt, hajario. **hajario** : Yeah? So I guess you wanna put your nigger dick in my tranny cunt and make some retards? **random person** : Oh, I do beg your pardon. Your edgy satire has shown me the error of my ways. FIN (with apologies to pretty much everyone) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/153 "2012-07-10T17:34:54Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Fine, use your approach, but remember that as a straight man, you have no idea what it’s like to deal with this on a personal level every day and if Eve sometimes strikes you as abrasive, well, count yourself lucky that you don’t have to deal with people denying your basic qualities on a regular basis. It’s really easy to tell other people to grin and bear it when you don’t have to do any heavy lifting yourself. You are, once again, shifting the goal posts and, it seems, willfully missing my point. -I am Jewish and have dealt with lots of prejudice in my time including getting beaten by a group of kids when I was a kid and having my hours cut to nothing when my boss found out about my ethnicity. -I have, indeed, done some heavy lifting. As I said, I have donated considerable time and money of my own to help with the cause. (Have you done the same?) This is of no direct benefit to me but I do so because I can’t abide abuses of human rights. -Please show me where I have asked anyone to grin and bear anything. I have very clearly said that that specific prejudice must be called out and am only disagreeing about the method by which to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/154 "2012-07-10T17:45:15Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I will note, that the vitriol and comparisons to other slurs were started by a particularly nasty post by a transgendered woman and that’s what set off the hijack. All that was accomplished by that nastiness was to piss people off and entrench the views of some of them. Minds were actually changed when reasonable people arrived later and provided cites and explanations with kindness. Yes…you’re correct. That being said, I do err on the side of giving Eve the benefit of the doubt in cases like this. While there many more transgendered women on here, Eve is out and public IRL, which means she is subject to more personal abuse and direct intolerance than those who are in, say, deep stealth mode. It’s a much more personal issue for her than for most other persons. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/155 "2012-07-10T17:45:45Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > -Please show me where I have asked anyone to grin and bear anything. I have very clearly said that that specific prejudice must be called out and am only disagreeing about the method by which to do it. Eve has spent countless hours being the board’s go-to reference on transgendered and has been polite and gracious to us and lord only knows how many other people outside of the dope on the issue. She doesn’t tell you to be nice to the people making cracks about christ-killers, you can do the same for her. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/156 "2012-07-10T17:46:28Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I have, indeed, done some heavy lifting. As I said, I have donated considerable time and money of my own to help with the cause. (Have you done the same?) This is of no direct benefit to me but I do so because I can’t abide abuses of human rights. Not that it’s a tangible benefit, but you have my deep and earnest respect for doing such (and other things about you as well.) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/157 "2012-07-10T17:55:24Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Eve has spent countless hours being the board’s go-to reference on transgendered and has been polite and gracious to us and lord only knows how many other people outside of the dope on the issue. She doesn’t tell you to be nice to the people making cracks about christ-killers, you can do the same for her. And the goal posts move again. (And if I am not mistaken, **Eve** is also Jewish.) You have mistaken and misstated my opinion numerous times today. I’m not sure why you think that I, as a person fighting the same fight, can’t have a difference of opinion on how we should work together. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/158 "2012-07-10T18:55:08Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The implication of the second statement is pretty clearly that transgendered people have not been treated poorly throughout history. I think it’s a little disingenuous to get irritated at RNATB for thinking that’s what you meant. It is nothing of the sort. The implication of the second statement is that the term ‘tranny’ doesn’t have near the same history behind it, not that transgendered haven’t been treated poorly. There’s quite a gulf between ‘treated poorly’ and ‘kept as slaves for two hundred years and then treated as second class citizens for another hundred.’ Having said that: > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Personally, I don’t give a rat’s ass about comparing and contrasting the offensiveness of different slurs. Again, I wonder why this hijack always occurs where people try to weigh “nigger” versus “tranny” and conclude that unless one is close to or equal to the other in “severity” (however the hell that’s measured) then it’s OK to use one but not the other…all of which ignores the basic principle of politeness of “it doesn’t matter _how_ offensive it is; it’s offensive to transgendered persons, please don’t use it.” My conclusion is _not_ that it’s ok to use ‘tranny’ because it’s less offensive than ‘nigger.’ It occurrs to me that there is a baseline, where a word becomes hateful or degrading to a person, below which the degree of offensiveness is no longer of consequence. I think that several here are, understandably, reading this thread with the defensive glasses on. I’m not arguing anything here, I was just attempting to understand the issue better, myself. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/159 "2012-07-10T18:57:37Z")
Thinking about this a little more… Generally speaking, it’s one thing to sit on the internet a bleat on about how open minded you are. It’s another thing to be like me who has marched in public for LGBT rights, donated my hard earned money to the cause and spent countless hours trying to educate people. I have, in real life, changed minds. I am, in fact, eminently entitled and qualified to tell anyone my opinion on how to deal with this sort of prejudice. Let me tell you about a couple of real stories from my life. When I was 18, I very ignorantly referred to someone I didn’t like as a “stupid fag.” A woman overheard and nicely said to me, “Did you mean that he was a stupid gay person or a stupid jerky person? You really shouldn’t use that word that way.” I thought about it and told her that she was right and never did it again. The next one is longer so will be in another post. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/160 "2012-07-10T19:08:33Z")
Do you do this to help marginalized populations or for bragging rights on the internet? I don’t give a shit what sort of credentials that you feel you have, you have no right to tell Eve how she should handle transphobia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766.md?page=9)