# Epic Story! "The Mystery Of The Transvestite And The Stolen Car "\[now a debate on slurs\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766 "2012-06-30T02:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/161 "2012-07-10T19:20:27Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Do you do this to help marginalized populations or for bragging rights on the internet? Considering that I haven’t mentioned it much, if at all, before, you tell me? I don’t talk about it at all out of context. I just do it. I only mentioned it this time to explain that I am not just an armchair internet warrior. > [@](#): > > I don’t give a shit what sort of credentials that you feel you have, you have no right to tell Eve how she should handle transphobia. Well then we can both play this stupid game. You have no right to tell _me_ how I should handle transphobia. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/162 "2012-07-10T19:32:36Z")
Story #2 happened just last year. I am not going to out anyone but a somewhat well known actor in a popular children’s show, who is now deceased, happened to be gay. He was popular with the kids in his neighborhood even well after his retirement. Somehow the guy came up in conversation and one of my co-workers starting mocking him. He said something like, “Haha. Did you know that that guy was queer as a three dollar bill? There is no way I would have let my kids play with them.” Now I could have gone off on him but I didn’t. I explained that being gay means that he likes men, not boys and that statistically his daughter was in more danger from a random man that his son with a gay man. My co-worker really thought about it and told me that I was right and then apologized for saying that. There is no way that demeaning him and using a bunch of other slurs would have made that point. Now I don’t mean to imply that I can convince anyone. I probably fail more than I succeed. I do know that it works. Why is it that I am not entitled to tell people about it regardless of their transgendered status? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/163 "2012-07-10T20:57:53Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > RuPaul is a gay male drag queen, not transgendered. Furthermore, they’re in a unique position with fame, money, etc. and not directly subjected to abuse they have to take from anyone, so their opinion on the matter is of highly questionable value. Which was what I was asking – he’s not considered “transgendered”. (Although would a drag queen be considered a transvestite?) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/164 "2012-07-10T21:03:44Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Which was what I was asking – he’s not considered “transgendered”. (Although would a drag queen be considered a transvestite?) IME the term transgendered is an umbrella that includes transvestites in one group and transsexuals in another. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/165 "2012-07-10T21:03:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Which was what I was asking – he’s not considered “transgendered”. (Although would a drag queen be considered a transvestite?) You’re correct but “tranny” is a pejorative for both transgendered people and transvestites. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/166 "2012-07-10T21:30:57Z")
One’s an umbrella and one’s a pejorative. They’re pretty much functionally equivalent, but the cuter-sounding word is an offensive slur for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/167 "2012-07-10T21:32:52Z")
Those are some great stories, **hajario** , and as a member of the Lesbian-Gay-Bacon-Tomato community, I’m genuinely thankful that you make the effort to help us. However, your position in this thread is bullshit. **Eve** did not attack anyone. Not one single word of any of her posts her insulted or disparaged any other poster on these boards. She expressed a good deal of anger, sure - and that anger is absolutely and completely justified. And more over, it’s a vitally necessary part of the civil rights process. Politeness is great, but if we’re only ever polite about gay and trans rights, it’s very easy for the mainstream to interpret that those rights are not a very big deal. I mean, if we’re not upset about being oppressed, our oppression can’t really be that severe, right? I agree, if **Eve** had come in here and said, “Fuck you, you fucking bigots!” then that wouldn’t have been helpful. (Also, against the rules.) But if she’d come in here and said, “I don’t like the word “tranny,” and would prefer people not use it,” how many people are going to remember that in a month? Or a year? On the other hand, how many people are going to remember her post to this thread now? **Eve** ’s a very cool lady, and a popular fixture of the board. Seeing her snap someone’s head off over use of the word “tranny” is going to make a hell of a lot more of an impression than your milquetoast alternative. I think the “tranny v. nigger” hijack was inevitable, regardless of what sort of response **Eve** had led with (presuming she wasn’t ignored entirely because she choked all the passion out of her complaint for fear of offending people). Analogies are one of the most common debate tools, and the analogy between “tranny” and “nigger” are obvious and compelling. The comparison would have been made eventually in any discussion of the subject, and that’s naturally going to attract those who are more interested in having a “more-oppressed-than-thou” dick measuring contest than any sort of actual social justice. Lastly, while the offense may have been made out of ignorance, this is the Straight Dope. Since when do we treat ignorance kindly around here? All that being said: Sincerely, thank you for being an ally. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/168 "2012-07-10T21:58:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Those are some great stories, **hajario** , and as a member of the Lesbian-Gay-Bacon-Tomato community, I’m genuinely thankful that you make the effort to help us. > > However, your position in this thread is bullshit. **Eve** did not attack anyone. Not one single word of any of her posts her insulted or disparaged any other poster on these boards. She expressed a good deal of anger, sure - and that anger is absolutely and completely justified. And more over, it’s a vitally necessary part of the civil rights process. Politeness is great, but if we’re only ever polite about gay and trans rights, it’s very easy for the mainstream to interpret that those rights are not a very big deal. I mean, if we’re not upset about being oppressed, our oppression can’t really be that severe, right? > > I agree, if **Eve** had come in here and said, “Fuck you, you fucking bigots!” then that wouldn’t have been helpful. (Also, against the rules.) But if she’d come in here and said, “I don’t like the word “tranny,” and would prefer people not use it,” how many people are going to remember that in a month? Or a year? On the other hand, how many people are going to remember her post to this thread now? **Eve** ’s a very cool lady, and a popular fixture of the board. Seeing her snap someone’s head off over use of the word “tranny” is going to make a hell of a lot more of an impression than your milquetoast alternative. > > I think the “tranny v. nigger” hijack was inevitable, regardless of what sort of response **Eve** had led with (presuming she wasn’t ignored entirely because she choked all the passion out of her complaint for fear of offending people). Analogies are one of the most common debate tools, and the analogy between “tranny” and “nigger” are obvious and compelling. The comparison would have been made eventually in any discussion of the subject, and that’s naturally going to attract those who are more interested in having a “more-oppressed-than-thou” dick measuring contest than any sort of actual social justice. > > Lastly, while the offense may have been made out of ignorance, this is the Straight Dope. Since when do we treat ignorance kindly around here? > > All that being said: Sincerely, thank you for being an ally. These are all good points, but there is another side - “snapping someone’s head off” about being oppressed by a word choice that many do not know is in fact oppressive comes across as unreasonably thin-skinned, and the target of the anger unfairly treated. Hence the comparison to “nigger”. The issue really isn’t that the one is more inherently offensive than the other, or that one group is more oppressed than another. The issue is that those using the term “nigger” must know it is a slur. They are using it because it is a slur. Many who do not have transgendered friends, lovers or relations simply do not know that “tranny” is a slur. I certainly did not. I think “snapping someone’s head off” ought to be reserved for people using slurs that they know or ought to know are offensive. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/169 "2012-07-10T22:01:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > These are all good points, but there is another side - “snapping someone’s head off” about being oppressed by a word choice that many do not know is in fact oppressive comes across as unreasonably thin-skinned, and the target of the anger unfairly treated. > > Hence the comparison to “nigger”. The issue really isn’t that the one is more inherently offensive than the other, or that one group is more oppressed than another. The issue is that those using the term “nigger” must know it is a slur. They are using it because it is a slur. Many who do not have transgendered friends, lovers or relations simply do not know that “tranny” is a slur. I certainly did not. I think “snapping someone’s head off” ought to be reserved for people using slurs that they know or ought to know are offensive. Look at the original title of the thread. Now read the linked story. I have said before and will say again the whole humor of the story depends on a man sleeping with a transperson without realizing it. Even without use of the word tranny, this is cruel and offensive. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/170 "2012-07-10T22:04:43Z")
Thank you, **Miller** , for your genuine and intelligent response. This gives us something to actually discuss instead me having to defend myself against things that I never said or implied. I am glad to see that you think that I have a right to my opinion although you disagree. You are correct in that I shouldn’t have used the word “attack” to characterize **Eve** ’s responses. And don’t for one second think that I think that we shouldn’t be angry when we are confronted with prejudice or ignorance. I was sickened and depressed for a week when Prop 8 passed here a couple of years ago. I also get that at some point, a Stonewall has to happen. At first though, I think people need to be given a chance to learn before you hit them with the big guns. Back when I was 18 and that woman confronted me, I wouldn’t have learned the same lesson had she come out screaming. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/171 "2012-07-10T22:04:55Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Look at the original title of the thread. Now read the linked story. I have said before and will say again the whole humor of the story depends on a man sleeping with a transperson without realizing it. Even without use of the word tranny, this is cruel and offensive. Not arguing about the linked story here. I haven’t read it and don’t really want to - sounds nasty. ☹ Only about the debate in this thread, after it was moved here to great debates. If the debate is “the linked story is cruel and offensive”, I have nothing to say on that. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/172 "2012-07-10T22:12:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Which was what I was asking – he’s not considered “transgendered”. (Although would a drag queen be considered a transvestite?) Much debate exists. Some TG/TS persons I know are not at all happy to be grouped with transvestites - a couple I know are rather disgusted with the comparison. Others think it’s great. The root cause behind the concern is that some, possibly a majority, of transvestites cross dress for a sexual kink and have no doubt themselves that they are a man (or woman) dressing in the clothes of a woman (or man). RuPaul is a drag queen, and thus doing it purely as a part of their act. Their opinions overall are about as relevant as anyone’s. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/173 "2012-07-10T22:17:29Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Some of you folks, doggone it…how disappointing. I don’t want to lecture or hector (but that’s exactly what I’m doing… :smack: )…I can’t believe folks (not referring to Sage Rat whose post I quoted) interact with human beings in real-life society the way you do on the SDMB. Internet tough talk is just that, because I’m sure the first time anyone walked up to a relevant audience and exclaimed “hey, nigger is just a word, words don’t have any power!” or “hey Jews, don’t pressure me into not using kike! It’s just, like, words and stuff, man!” or even “why don’t you like Polack jokes, Jerzy? Do you hate free speech?” they’d either be shunned from society or would get their ass kicked. > > I don’t think I have ever heard “tranny” used in anything but a derogatory manner, and I think I’ve only heard an actual TS/TG person use it a couple of times themselves. The people who don’t think it’s offensive likely don’t treat it seriously because all those “trannies” running around are, well, _funny._ They’re just dudes dressing up as chicks to have sex, right? Or milquetoast ersatz males feminized by a domineering wife with rolling pin in hand. Or ultra butch dykes who want to steal the white man’s womenfolk. There’s no real reason to be rude to people in general but the fact is Jews are a 5,000 year old religious group with a long history of persecution. Blacks are a major ethnic group with established historical persecution in the United States (and many other majority white countries.) People who have gender identity disorders (all along that spectrum) **are** just dudes dressing up as chicks and/or dudes who have gotten a doctor to mutilate them to have imitation female genitalia (or vice versa for both, I guess.) To expect that people look at these individuals the same way as blacks who just have a common human genetic trait and deserve no persecution for it is ridiculous. GID patients have a mental illness and society should be looking into ways to eradicate that mental illness through some form of treatment that isn’t the equivalent of giving a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks he’s Napoleon a bicorn hat and a saber. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/174 "2012-07-10T22:22:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There’s no real reason to be rude to people in general but the fact is Jews are a 5,000 year old religious group with a long history of persecution. Blacks are a major ethnic group with established historical persecution in the United States (and many other majority white countries.) People who have gender identity disorders (all along that spectrum) **are** just dudes dressing up as chicks and/or dudes who have gotten a doctor to mutilate them to have imitation female genitalia (or vice versa for both, I guess.) To expect that people look at these individuals the same way as blacks who just have a common human genetic trait and deserve no persecution for it is ridiculous. GID patients have a mental illness and society should be looking into ways to eradicate that mental illness through some form of treatment that isn’t the equivalent of giving a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks he’s Napoleon a bicorn hat and a saber. [http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.long](http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.long) Read it. It’s scientific evidence that the human brain is sexually dimorphic and that the sex of the brain can be at odds with chromosomes and morphology. Either attack the research, or admit that you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/175 "2012-07-10T22:22:27Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There’s no real reason to be rude to people in general but the fact is Jews are a 5,000 year old religious group with a long history of persecution. Blacks are a major ethnic group with established historical persecution in the United States (and many other majority white countries.) People who have gender identity disorders (all along that spectrum) **are** just dudes dressing up as chicks and/or dudes who have gotten a doctor to mutilate them to have imitation female genitalia (or vice versa for both, I guess.) To expect that people look at these individuals the same way as blacks who just have a common human genetic trait and deserve no persecution for it is ridiculous. GID patients have a mental illness and society should be looking into ways to eradicate that mental illness through some form of treatment that isn’t the equivalent of giving a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks he’s Napoleon a bicorn hat and a saber. _Sigh_ All of those posts that I made today…down the crapper. Let it be known that I have no problem with this post getting hit with both barrels. This is not in the same league with someone who genuinely didn’t know that tranny is considered offensive. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/176 "2012-07-10T22:23:53Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > GID patients have a mental illness and society should be looking into ways to eradicate that mental illness through some form of treatment that isn’t the equivalent of giving a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks he’s Napoleon a bicorn hat and a saber. Holy shit, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/177 "2012-07-10T22:37:05Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > [http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.long](http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.long) > > Read it. It’s scientific evidence that the human brain is sexually dimorphic and that the sex of the brain can be at odds with chromosomes and morphology. > > Either attack the research, or admit that you are wrong. I’ve actually addressed similar research to this many times. All the studies I’ve ever seen (including this pathetic study with only 42 participants) have a few things in common: [ul] [li]Small sample size, usually less than 100 persons.[/li][li]Persons who **desperately** want to believe “transgendered people are men with female brains” (or insert appropriate genders in appropriate place) take the research to say far more than it actually does.[/li][li]Generally the specific way they do the above is a study finds some similarities between a “transgendered” male brain and a healthy female brain and then take that as general proof that the mentally ill male literally has a **female brain in a male body** [/li][/ul] For example one popular study on brain activity had GID patients look at pornography and the researchers noted what areas of their brain were activated by the pornography. The researchers found **some similarities** between brain activity areas in a GID male and a healthy female. However, they also found unique activity not seen in healthy males or healthy females. Rather than convincing or even suggesting to me that the GID patient literally had a “female brain” it suggests to me the GID patient had an abnormally functioning brain, a result of defective physical development of the brain itself or defective production of various chemicals in the brain in levels that cause mental illness. So let’s go to your particular study, and it’s really no different than other studies I’ve seen on brain structure of GID patients. It simply shows abnormalities “similar to that of the healthy female brain.” But the brain is a major and complicated organ, abnormalities in a male brain here or there doesn’t suddenly make the male brain female. There is a lot more to being male or female than just a few select areas of the brain, males and females do lots of mental tasks differently in thought areas dispersed throughout the entire brain itself. Finally, let’s say any of these studies ever prove what none has ever come close to even suggesting (note it is not the researchers that utilize foolish claims and say that certain abnormalities in a mentally ill person’s brain make their brain the “brain of an opposite biological sex”)–that in fact somehow you have a female brain in a male body. Here is the problem, ask any biologist to sex a mammal, they need not look at the brain but instead the genitalia. It’s basically obvious then if the animal is male or female, in rare cases the animal may be physically deformed. Only in those cases of irrevocable physical deformity should we just try to accommodate the person. In cases where there is the potential that we could correct the deformity in brain function with future pharmaceutical approaches that would be a far better approach. Schizophrenics have brains different than healthy humans, but that doesn’t mean they have healthy brains. A GID person is possibly the same way but again, I’ve never seen any definitive evidence as to what causes GID, it could be chemical imbalances or physical deformity of the brain itself. If we eventually know that schizophrenia and GID are both caused by irreversible brain deformity that develops in the womb, I would argue we would strive to find genetic counseling technology to prevent such people from being created in the first place. I’ll repeat what I said in an earlier thread on this subject: > [@](#): > > Again, if I give a biologist a bitch and a dog, how is it going to sex them? Is a Ph.D. biologist going to hem and haw or is he going to say the dog with a vagina, ovaries, and mammary glands is a female and the dog with testes and a penis a male? > > I try to avoid using the word gender because it opens up the floodgates to all kinds of equivocation. Historically gender was not associated with sex until the 1950s, prior to that the word gender in English typically was primarily only associated with certain terminology relating to grammar (i.e. gender of certain words or such–mostly phased out of Modern English but still present in lots of other languages.) > > It’s not totally unavoidable though, as a lot of the medical literature uses terms such as “Gender Identity Disorder” and etc. > > Male and female are different sexes and are defined biologically, there is no controversy in the rest of the animal kingdom (at least in mammals) about which individual animal is a male and which individual animal is a female. > > If someone wants to adopt “cultural roles” normally associated with someone of a different sex that is fine, cultural roles are not set in stone. Biological sex is. Where people jump the shark is when they don’t want to just change roles, they want to change their genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics to masquerade as a member of a sex to which they do not belong. At that point you aren’t just adopting a “gender role” (a social construct) different from that which is normally associated with your biological sex, instead you are actively seeking to deny the truth of your biological sex and perform self-mutilation in an attempt to elaborately mimic the alternate biological sex. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/178 "2012-07-10T22:45:14Z")
Still haven’t figured out that dogs and people aren’t the same thing, I see. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/179 "2012-07-10T22:45:51Z")
[quote=“Martin\_Hyde, post:177, topic:626766”] I’ve actually addressed similar research to this many times. All the studies I’ve ever seen (including this pathetic study with only 42 participants) have a few things in common: [list] [li]Small sample size, usually less than 100 persons.[/li][/QUOTE] I’ll grant that the sample size is small. > [@](#): > > \*]Generally the specific way they do the above is a study finds some similarities between a “transgendered” male brain and a healthy female brain and then take that as general proof that the mentally ill male literally has a **female brain in a male body** Do you deny that the brain of homo sapiens sapiens is sexually dimorphic? > [@](#): > > For example one popular study on brain activity had GID patients look at pornography and the researchers noted what areas of their brain were activated by the pornography. The researchers found **some similarities** between brain activity areas in a GID male and a healthy female. However, they also found unique activity not seen in healthy males or healthy females. Rather than convincing or even suggesting to me that the GID patient literally had a “female brain” it suggests to me the GID patient had an abnormally functioning brain, a result of defective physical development of the brain itself or defective production of various chemicals in the brain in levels that cause mental illness. You’ve just attacked a cite that I never used. I believe that’s a strawman. > [@](#): > > Finally, let’s say any of these studies ever prove what none has ever come close to even suggesting (note it is not the researchers that utilize foolish claims and say that certain abnormalities in a mentally ill person’s brain make their brain the “brain of an opposite biological sex”)–that in fact somehow you have a female brain in a male body. Here is the problem, ask any biologist to sex a mammal, they need not look at the brain but instead the genitalia. Except those studies where they deliberately created transgendered rats. > [@](#): > > It’s basically obvious then if the animal is male or female, in rare cases the animal may be physically deformed. No, it’s generally obvious if the animal has male or female genitalia. These may be at odds with internal structures and/or chromosomes. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766/180 "2012-07-10T22:49:08Z")
The study by Zhou mentioned in this study linked by **DocCathode** is actually the very study I’ve basically laughed off in the past. Not because it doesn’t contain interesting results. In the Zhou study it showed that six MTF transexuals taking estrogen had a similar central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (or BSTc as they say) as a healthy female. Anyone even remotely familiar with the brain would realize the BSTc is a very small part of the brain that has only been studied for these differences a few times and in small numbers (obviously since the studies have to be performed on dead patients there is some limitation to the number of dead GID patients who donate their bodies to research), so even if this research outright proved the BSTc of a MTF transexual was the exact same as the BSTc of a healthy female that’s not the same as saying the entire brain is female. Countless studies have shown male and females cognitively process many, many different things in different ways, and have differing aptitudes in certain tasks and in acquiring certain skills. These differences are not all contained in a small part of a small part of a small part of the brain, but are the result of differences throughout the entire brain (not to mention hormonal differences as the result of different organs and hormonal levels throughout the body.) But of course this doesn’t even prove the BSTc of a MTF transexual is “identical” to that of a male, only that it has a similar neuron count. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/epic-story-the-mystery-of-the-transvestite-and-the-stolen-car-now-a-debate-on-slurs/626766.md?page=10)