# Equal pay for men and women in sports. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176 "2016-05-07T16:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/141 "2020-05-04T03:25:33Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I am not greatly swayed that athletes should get paid to play the game. > > If people want to do it for the fun of it, have at it. But I don’t think professional sports is a good idea overall. I don’t suppose I’m against the practice in the sense of wanting to enact laws against it, but whatever. I’ve always looked at it as it gives countries a way to compete against one another without going to war and it allows people to take out their aggretions in a safe manner. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/142 "2020-05-04T03:27:22Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why? > A woman can still have a career with a professional sports team - just not as a player. What is sexist about that? > > Try opening your eyes to new possibilities. No, these are OLD possibilities, as in the 1960s and older. Your suggestion that women should not try to play professional sports but should feel happy and fulfilled taking jobs on the sidelines is sexist. I haven’t engaged in the thread’s very interesting conversation about whether women in team sports should be _paid the same as_ male athletes. The arguments against this were based on popularity and profitability, not on whether women should play at all. YOU are the only one who suggested women shouldn’t play professionally but should find fulfillment in non-athletic roles. Apparently, you think women just really, really want to be involved in professional sports teams somehow and that their talent and athleticism are negligible, so darn, why they can’t they be happy just being scorekeepers? What’s next, suggesting they can get fulfillment by marrying pro athletes and producing male sports stars? ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/143 "2020-05-04T04:10:36Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Their employer is their league and they should work to get more of the income. Just dont expect the mens teams to pay for them. Are you always a jerk? Did you even read the link you were responding to? ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@cornflakes2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/144 "2020-05-04T04:50:18Z")
This topic has been well covered by Dr. Jordan Peterson. Equality of outcome is a very bad thing for this world. Equality of opportunity is what we want to focus on. People should not be getting equal pay because of their genders but because of their level of competence, output, and quality of work. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/145 "2020-05-04T05:02:26Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I am not greatly swayed that athletes should get paid to play the game. > > If people want to do it for the fun of it, have at it. But I don’t think professional sports is a good idea overall. I don’t suppose I’m against the practice in the sense of wanting to enact laws against it, but whatever. Umm, I think I should report myself for threadshitting. I apologize to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/146 "2020-05-04T05:42:26Z")
> [@cornflakes2](#): > > This topic has been well covered by Dr. Jordan Peterson. > Equality of outcome is a very bad thing for this world. > Equality of opportunity is what we want to focus on. > > People should not be getting equal pay because of their genders but because of their level of competence, output, and quality of work. Try actually reading the thread. Especially post #138. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/147 "2020-05-04T05:57:41Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Umm, I think I should report myself for threadshitting. I apologize to everyone. For tripping the thread a yellow card is issued.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/148 "2020-05-04T06:37:53Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why? > A woman can still have a career with a professional sports team - just not as a player. What is sexist about that? > > Try opening your eyes to new possibilities. You’ve never heard of the NWHL? The WNBA? :dubious: Players like Amanda Kessel or Sheryl Swoopes? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/149 "2020-05-04T08:02:17Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Why? > A woman can still have a career with a professional sports team - just not as a player. What is sexist about that? > > Try opening your eyes to new possibilities. That glass ceiling you are pointing out to us isn’t that new, and is way overdue for a good smashing. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/150 "2020-05-04T14:13:26Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > No, these are OLD possibilities, as in the 1960s and older. > > Your suggestion that women should not try to play professional sports but should feel happy and fulfilled taking jobs on the sidelines is sexist. I haven’t engaged in the thread’s very interesting conversation about whether women in team sports should be _paid the same as_ male athletes. The arguments against this were based on popularity and profitability, not on whether women should play at all. YOU are the only one who suggested women shouldn’t play professionally but should find fulfillment in non-athletic roles. Apparently, you think women just really, really want to be involved in professional sports teams somehow and that their talent and athleticism are negligible, so darn, why they can’t they be happy just being scorekeepers? What’s next, suggesting they can get fulfillment by marrying pro athletes and producing male sports stars? I am SOOO glad the[32% of women who work for the NFL](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2618710-the-past-present-and-future-of-women-and-the-nfls-boys-club) dont listen to people like you. Where BTW, often long term they make more money and have more job security than many of the players. And what is wrong being a scorekeeper? What is wrong with being a person who does stats? You ever done it? I did for high schools. It’s not easy. However if you get good at it it often it leads to better jobs in sports. BUT, you think its demeaning and women should shun sports unless they are on the field/court. Glad they dont listen to people like you. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/151 "2020-05-04T14:22:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You’ve never heard of the NWHL? The WNBA? :dubious: Players like Amanda Kessel or Sheryl Swoopes? Honestly no. But then I hardly keep up with any sports other than Kansas City or University of Kansas teams. Are their games on tv? Thing is at mens pro and college games the ticket paying audience is nearly half women. If women supported womens teams as much as they support mens you would see more pay equity. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/152 "2020-05-04T15:12:35Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > No, these are OLD possibilities, as in the 1960s and older. > > Your suggestion that women should not try to play professional sports but should feel happy and fulfilled taking jobs on the sidelines is sexist. I haven’t engaged in the thread’s very interesting conversation about whether women in team sports should be _paid the same as_ male athletes. The arguments against this were based on popularity and profitability, not on whether women should play at all. YOU are the only one who suggested women shouldn’t play professionally but should find fulfillment in non-athletic roles. Apparently, you think women just really, really want to be involved in professional sports teams somehow and that their talent and athleticism are negligible, so darn, why they can’t they be happy just being scorekeepers? What’s next, suggesting they can get fulfillment by marrying pro athletes and producing male sports stars? Women are free to play professional sports. But why would they need the income generated by anyone else? If the women’s teams become as popular and generate the same revenue that the men’s teams do, then surely they need to be paid on par with the revenue they generate. Are they? Most of the revenue generated by professional teams come from TV deal, not ticket sales (if I remember correctly) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/153 "2020-05-04T16:52:07Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > When come back, bring [facts](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/what-critics-get-wrong-about-the-us-womens-soccer-pay-debate-153139503.html): The Womens national team may generate more revenue over some period of time but overall men’s soccer generates much more than women’s soccer. Because of this members of the men’s national team has large salaries on their club teams and does not need a regular salary to make ends meet. Meanwhile the women get a much higher percentage of their income from the national team. That is the reason the women opted to have a contract that relies less on contingencies while the men have a contract that is less secure but potentially more lucrative. That is inseparable from the overall popularity of the types of soccer. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/154 "2020-05-04T18:47:02Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > YOU are the only one who suggested women shouldn’t play professionally but should find fulfillment in non-athletic roles. Well, he said they lacked the necessary athletic talent, putting employment as a top-level professional athlete out of reach. This is unquestionably true for essentially 100% of women - and for 99.97% of men. IOW, only a microscopic fraction of the populace has anything approaching the skill necessary to play top-tier professional sports. The fraction interested in sport careers is of course very much larger. It thus makes enormous sense for these to pursue any of the many sport-related jobs that don’t require athletic skill. Nothing sexist about noting this. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/155 "2020-05-04T21:01:45Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > When come back, bring [facts](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/what-critics-get-wrong-about-the-us-womens-soccer-pay-debate-153139503.html): [There is a reason people cherry pick that time frame.](https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/jul/11/does-us-womens-soccer-team-bring-more-revenue-get-/) 2016 is the only year in which the women brought in more revenue than the men. If you go back further it isn’t even close. We need to be looking at an 8 or 10 year span to determine revenue generation. That would include 2 world cup events and 2 olympics. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/156 "2020-05-04T22:12:20Z")
This [CBS News article](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/judge-dismisses-us-womens-national-soccer-teams-claim-for-equal-pay/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=87767491) mentions the reasons given for the decision to dismiss much of the USWNT’s case: > [@](#): > > U.S. District Judge R Gary Klausner said he would not allow the equal pay allegations to go forward because the women’s national team previously “rejected an offer to be paid under the same pay-to-play structure” as the men’s national team. According to CBS Sports, the women’s team sought $66 million under the Equal Pay Act and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. > > “The WNT was willing to forgo higher bonuses for benefits, such as greater base compensation and the guarantee of a higher number of contracted players,” he wrote in the 32-page decision. “Accordingly, plaintiffs cannot now retroactively deem their CBA (collective bargaining agreement) worse than the MNT (men’s national team) CBA by reference to what they would have made had they been paid under the MNT’s pay-to-play terms structure when they themselves rejected such a structure.” This makes it sound like the WNT argument amounts to “We regret the terms of the CBA we chose, because as things have turned out, choosing the one that matched the MNT’s CBA would have yielded more money. Can the court please reach back in time and give us now what we freely rejected then?” ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/157 "2020-05-05T01:08:49Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Most of the revenue generated by professional teams come from TV deal, not ticket sales (if I remember correctly) Dont forget sponsorships and alot of that comes from having good marketing. All successful teams, even high school, have good marketing departments. For example check out the webpage for Kansas City’s premier womens roller derby team, [The KC Roller Warriors.](https://www.kcrollerwarriors.com/) ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176/158 "2020-05-05T02:04:56Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I am not greatly swayed that athletes should get paid to play the game. > > If people want to do it for the fun of it, have at it. But I don’t think professional sports is a good idea overall. I don’t suppose I’m against the practice in the sense of wanting to enact laws against it, but whatever. Just out of interest, then, who do you think should get all the money that people pay to watch sports? Would you prefer that it go straight to the billionaire team owners, bypassing the players altogether? I don’t think people should pay actors or artists or web designers or coders either. If people want to do that stuff for fun, have at it. I don’t think professional content creation is a good idea overall. If I need someone to design a website, they should do it for me for free, and if I want to watch a movie, well, I guess I’m just going to be completely out of luck. > [@Xema](#): > > This makes it sound like the WNT argument amounts to “We regret the terms of the CBA we chose, because as things have turned out, choosing the one that matched the MNT’s CBA would have yielded more money. Can the court please reach back in time and give us now what we freely rejected then?” There’s a reasonably extensive and very interesting legal analysis of this issue on the [Volokh Conspiracy blog](https://reason.com/2020/05/02/a-dubious-summary-judgment-grant-against-the-u-s-womens-soccer-team/). The author, Paul Cassell, who is a Professor of Law with a distinguished legal career, believes that the summary judgment ruling against the Women’s National Team in this case “is dubious and will likely be overturned on appeal.” I’m not going to go through all of the points he makes. If you’re interested, you can read the article. But he does address the issue of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, and argues that, in order to reach the conclusion that he did about the WNT’s actions, the judge made far too many assumptions about how a jury would weigh the evidence. > [@](#): > > Moreover, a step back to look at the big picture reveals the absurdity of concluding that the women somehow were “willing” to forego the kinds of bonuses the men had. Accordingly to a seemingly straightforward calculation, the women would have made $66 million more if paid on the same structure as the men! The women had no reason to be “willing” to forego that staggering amount of additional compensation–even if they did receive some modest “insurance” at far lower levels of compensation. The WNT was the defending world champion during the negotiations–and were expected to be very strong contenders to win the 2019 Women’s World Cup. They would have loved to have contracted for the same kinds of bonuses that the men were promised if they had achieved at that high international level. Note that, in all of this Cassell is not arguing that the Women’s National Team should necessarily win their pay-related claims. His argument is that the case should go to a jury, rather than being dismissed on an order of summary judgment. > [@](#): > > Perhaps they are unfair to the MNT, which suffered an unexpected downturn in revenues when it unexpectedly failed to qualify for the World Cup. But perhaps not. Questions such as these are precisely why juries decide these kinds of cases. The factual complexities have to be evaluated by twelve neutral observers, who hear all the witnesses and see all the evidence. > > When I was a federal district court judge, I saw some equal pay and similar gender discrimination claims come before me. These cases inevitably presented complicated fact patterns that rarely lent themselves to resolution on a summary judgment motion. So too in this case. The facts are complex and disputed–and must be decided by a jury. > > \ > > The WNT has already vowed to appeal, and they should. This ruling has a very high likelihood of being overturned on appeal. If one thing is clear about this case, it is that the WNT players have made reasonable claims of being paid unequally that a jury must decide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equal-pay-for-men-and-women-in-sports/754176.md?page=7)