# Equality Act is drawing opposition from feminists and conservatives alike **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742 "2019-05-09T19:26:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/61 "2019-05-10T18:05:22Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Nobody is arguing here that trans people don’t exist. Terfs absolutely argue that trans people don’t exist - they separate everyone who identifies as trans into two groups: men who are trying to infiltrate women only spaces with sinister intentions, and women who have been brainwashed into hating their own gender so effectively that they pretend to be men. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/62 "2019-05-10T18:06:35Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Nobody is arguing here that trans people don’t exist. People are arguing that being trans doesn’t necessarily allow you to be considered a woman in all circumstances. I don’t care what people are “considered” – I care how people are treated. You haven’t offered any good reason why trans people should be treated poorly, as you appear to be advocating should be allowed. > [@](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, the problem would be nicely solved by making all locker rooms and such unisex and saying to whoever is unhappy about it to go pound sand. But society at large, including both conservatives and progressives, agrees that women have a right to and even a need for unisex locker rooms. Hence the need to decide who is a woman and who isn’t. I don’t care about what strangers are thinking, I care about what they’re doing. I also don’t care if locker rooms are unisex. I think trans people should be allowed to use locker rooms and bathrooms. You appear to be advocating that they shouldn’t. If you’re advocating that trans people should use the wrong locker rooms, why? Who does that help? There are anti-trans bigots that use both locker rooms. Why does one group of anti-trans bigots get their preference, but not the other one? Why are trans people the ones who should be forced by law to feel distress? > [@](#): > > And this statement equally applies to transwomen. Feeling distressed because you’re refused access to women locker rooms is also part of life. Plenty of people are unhappy because they can’t, for any number of reasons, do something they would really want to do, like participating in a sporting event. Cis women unhappy about or feeling threatened by sharing locker rooms with preop transwomen can perfectly change at home. Transwomen unhappy about or feeling threatened by not being allowed into women locker rooms can also change at home. You have decided that the concerns of transwomen absolutely trump the generally accepted concerns of cis women, but you stating so doesn’t make it objectively true. Especially since, once again, it amounts to state that the subjective distress/fear/whatever of the few trumps the equally subjective distress/fear/whatever of the many. I’ve decided that trans people should be allowed to use locker rooms and bathrooms. That’s pretty much all I’ve decided. You appear to disagree. > [@](#): > > If you accept that the concern of women wrt men entering locker rooms is legitimate, how can you decide for them what exactly they perceive as a problem and who exactly they perceive as a man? If I enter a women locker room and begin to undress, how is this woman supposed to determine whether or not I actually feel I’m a woman? Why wouldn’t this be a valid concern? I in fact suspect that you would even reject the idea that she has any right to question my presence there, like saying “what the fuck are you doing here?” and expect an answer. At which point any man can indeed enter the women locker room and check up the undressed underage girl, as the author of the article fears. Anyone can ask any questions they like, even with vulgarity. Using vulgarity isn’t against the law. And men can already enter women’s locker rooms, physically speaking. The only thing that stops this is societal disapproval and sanction. Nothing would change if trans people are allowed (as they mostly are) to use locker rooms. Liars and perverts will be liars and perverts, as they always have. There’s no new risk by allowing trans people to use locker rooms. Pervs can and do still sneak into locker rooms, plant cameras, and other illegal pervy bullshit. This supposed fear of pervy men is entirely fictional – pervy men have always existed, and always will. Allowing trans people to use bathrooms and locker rooms doesn’t change this at all. > [@](#): > > But even if we assume so, how would you even define who can be legitimately be considered a trans person? Why would you assume that anybody self-identifying as a woman would do so, not only sincerely, but for clear, real, serious, lasting reasons? Why would a somewhat genderfluid person, for instance, who feels rather womanish today be prevented from using the women locker room? What about a transvestite who wants to feel more like a woman today? What about a man who wants to have a “woman experience”? On what basis could the line be drawn? And how anybody could determine that a specific person claim falls on this side of the line or on the other? All of this is already possible, and there aren’t terrible things happening. I could put on a dress and shave and walk into a woman’s bathroom or locker room, and in all likelihood nothing would happen. I don’t do this because I have no desire to, but if I did, it wouldn’t matter if trans people are or are not allowed to use locker rooms and bathrooms. Seriously. If there was going to be some plague of pervy men pretending to be women, it would have already happened. This has always been possible. It’s always been societal sanction/taboo/custom that has kept people going into the “right” bathrooms and locker rooms. Nothing would change by allowing trans people to also use locker rooms and bathrooms. > [@](#): > > Once again, if you want women only locker rooms, you need a definition, and I don’t see how where you personally, or that transwoman in particular, want to draw the line is anymore valid than any other. I dont see why “I don’t want anyone with a dick” is anymore or any less valid than “I don’t want anyone who feels he’s a man”, especially since while the first can be determined by an observer, the second can’t. No, we don’t need such a definition, because society pretty much sorts this sort of thing out as it always has. There’s no crisis here. People tend to use the bathrooms that match their gender identity, and only very rarely do perverts act pervy. And when they do, it’s because they’re criminal perverts, not because of some rule or lack thereof about trans people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/63 "2019-05-10T18:07:47Z")
The idea that allowing trans people to use locker rooms will lead to an outbreak of perversion has been proven false by the fact that trans people have been using locker rooms for years (probably decades in some places) without such an outbreak of perversion and lewd assaults. There’s nothing to fear here except for those who hate trans people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/64 "2019-05-10T18:11:39Z")
Forcing transwomen to use men’s locker rooms has lead to assault and death for transwomen. Allowing transwomen to use women’s locker rooms might have a chance of leading to some feelings of distress for some anti-trans bigots. One of those things seems like something that it’s reasonable to worry about; the other does not. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/65 "2019-05-10T18:11:42Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t think they’re actively lying. I think they sincerely believe it to be true. Some of what they say about transpeople, they undoubtedly believe, much the way Nazis legitimately believed that Jews were undermining German society. Some of what they say about transpeople is deliberately crafted falsehoods intended to bolster their arguments. I’ve seen Terfs directly target transpeople I know with accusations I knew for a fact to be false. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/66 "2019-05-10T19:19:32Z")
> [@](#): > > This supposed fear of pervy men is entirely fictional – pervy men have always existed, and always will. Allowing trans people to use bathrooms and locker rooms doesn’t change this at all. It’s not _entirely_ fictional. There have already been cases of trans-women (or men who say that they’re women, depending on your point of view) being given access to female spaces and committing sexual assaults that absolutely wouldn’t have occurred if they hadn’t been granted access to those spaces. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/67 "2019-05-10T19:28:41Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > It’s not _entirely_ fictional. There have already been cases of trans-women (or men who say that they’re women, depending on your point of view) being given access to female spaces and committing sexual assaults that absolutely wouldn’t have occurred if they hadn’t been granted access to those spaces. Sure it could have occurred. A dishonest perv can pretend to be a transwoman, or a transman (or a ciswoman or cisman, for that matter), to gain access to their preferred targets, depending on the “rules”. This doesn’t change because transwomen are allowed to use locker rooms. Liars will lie, and pervs will perv, whatever the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/68 "2019-05-10T19:30:34Z")
I think the “alike” in the OP is the problematic part. It’s opposed by a large section of conservatives and a very narrow slice of radical anti-trans feminists. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/69 "2019-05-10T19:31:18Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > It’s not _entirely_ fictional. There have already been cases of trans-women (or men who say that they’re women, depending on your point of view) being given access to female spaces and committing sexual assaults that absolutely wouldn’t have occurred if they hadn’t been granted access to those spaces. For instance…? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/70 "2019-05-10T19:38:30Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > It’s not _entirely_ fictional. There have already been cases of trans-women (or men who say that they’re women, depending on your point of view) being given access to female spaces and committing sexual assaults that absolutely wouldn’t have occurred if they hadn’t been granted access to those spaces. Do you have any cites for these cases? ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/71 "2019-05-10T19:40:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For instance…? [Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life.](https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life) From the article: _”Prosecutor Chris Dunn described White as an “alleged transgender female” who has used her “transgender persona to put herself in contact with vulnerable persons” whom she could then abuse.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/72 "2019-05-10T19:56:00Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > [Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life.](https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life) Nevermind. I suppose a women’s prison would be the female space. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/73 "2019-05-10T20:01:36Z")
Deleted. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/74 "2019-05-10T20:17:05Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Sure it is. Do transwomen become shorter? Do their hearts shrink? Hands? Does their pelvis change? The male pelvis is more narrow making their legs to be more vertical aiding in speed. The male pelvis is better suited for childbirth. Does muscle memory forget? That’s a real thing: > > [Does skeletal muscle have an ‘epi’‐memory? The role of epigenetics in nutritional programming, metabolic disease, aging and exercise - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933662/) > > Has the IOC changed the levels of testosterone they allowed in 2015? A professor in physiology says the limit allowed in 2015 isn’t fair: > > [Stuff](https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99434993/professor-of-physiology-says-trans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power) > > Do hemoglobin levels become equal? If not, that would be a huge advantage. Whatever does change to equal, a complete reformatting of the body doesn’t happen. Okay. So there’s the theory. You can list a non-trivial number of reasons why transwomen might have a competitive advantage over women. So given this, would we expect to see: - a disproportionally high number of transwomen in high-level pro sports? - a proportionally high number of transwomen in high-level pro sports? - a disproportionally low number of transwomen in high-level pro sports? Because in practice, it’s that last one. Despite what Shodan wrongly asserts about FtM athletes (and seriously how hard is it to google before you say something so wrong), the first out transgendered olympic athlete was [Chris Mosier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier) - a FtM transman. Meanwhile, the number of out transwomen is still… zero. Transwomen occasionally see a modicum of success (Gregory is the first new case to make the rounds in TERF circles since, what, Laurel Hubbard two years ago?), which one would expect given that there are millions of them. And every time that happens, without fail, someone tries to take that individual success as proof that transwomen have an unfair advantage. And the evidence just isn’t there. We know there are tons of advantages _men_ have… But we also know that HRT leads to many massive changes in physiology, and we also know that post-HRT transwomen are not disproportionately represented in high-level sports. There’s this concept in the smash community - “theorycrafting”. Trying to figure out how a matchup would work just by looking at the individual tools the characters have. That’s sort of what you’re doing here - “Oh, look at factor X, Y, Z, transwomen should have an advantage over ciswomen”. The thing about theorycrafting is that it’s notoriously unreliable, to the point where someone arguing, “Well, in theory the matchup should work well for character X” when actual results show character X getting consistently beaten gets laughed out of the room. I have no idea if Mary Gregory has an unfair advantage over the other women participating. But I don’t think you do either. And if she does, I’m not sure it’s any different from any possible “unfair advantages” that, say, Kate Ledecky has, and nobody’s trying to take away her medals. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/75 "2019-05-10T20:22:03Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > It’s not _entirely_ fictional. There have already been cases of trans-women (or men who say that they’re women, depending on your point of view) being given access to female spaces and committing sexual assaults that absolutely wouldn’t have occurred if they hadn’t been granted access to those spaces. And how does that compare to sexual assaults against trans prisoners who are housed in men’s populations? For that matter, how does that compare with sexual assaults against women, committed by cis-gendered female inmates? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/76 "2019-05-10T20:30:24Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > It’s not _entirely_ fictional. There have already been cases of trans-women (or men who say that they’re women, depending on your point of view) being given access to female spaces and committing sexual assaults that absolutely wouldn’t have occurred if they hadn’t been granted access to those spaces. Sure. Just like there are lesbians who have raped other women. But… we don’t force them into men’s prisons, and we don’t demand they stop using women-only spaces. And we definitely don’t use that as a reason to discriminate against all lesbians… …I mean, we don’t _anymore_. Exactly these arguments were used in the 70s to argue that lesbians shouldn’t be allowed in women’s spaces because they were dangerous. They’re based on the exact same bullshit assumptions, the exact same discriminatory rhetoric. The question, as usual, has to be taken in terms of population averages. Are transwomen, on average, more or less dangerous? Individual cases don’t help us here. The case of Karen White is tragic for her victims, but tells us about as much about how safe transwomen are in women’s spaces as [this article](https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/95769958-f129-416c-9610-c8f96504ce77) tells us about how safe lesbians are in women’s spaces. Christ, no wonder **Una** doesn’t post here any more. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/77 "2019-05-10T20:37:13Z")
> [@Budget Player Cadet](#): > > I have no idea if Mary Gregory has an unfair advantage over the other women participating. But I don’t think you do either. And if she does, I’m not sure it’s any different from any possible “unfair advantages” that, say, Kate Ledecky has, and nobody’s trying to take away her medals. Are there any examples of FtM athletes who sucked against men and who sucked equally hard against women after they transitioned? Admittedly, I’ve not looked into this, but common sense tells me that if hormones remove any innate male advantages than a FtM tennis player who was ranked, say, 1,000th in the world against men should, after transitioning, rank around about 1,000th against women, too. The trouble is we only ever hear about FtM athletes when they make the news after utterly obliterating the women they’re competing against. Are there any examples of terrible male athletes becoming equally terrible female athletes? ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/78 "2019-05-10T20:41:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And how does that compare to sexual assaults against trans prisoners who are housed in men’s populations? > > For that matter, how does that compare with sexual assaults against women, committed by cis-gendered female inmates? What does that have to do with my point? **iiandyiiii** said the fear expressed by many women that allowing self-certified trans people into their spaces will increase their chances of being assaulted was “entirely fictional”. My point was that it’s \*not/i] entirely fictional, as my example showed. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/79 "2019-05-10T20:45:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Terfs have certainly been around for a while - they’re pretty strongly associated with second wave feminism - but visible or influential? I can’t speak for what its like in France, but Terfs find it very hard to find a platform in leftist circles in the US, and are almost totally excluded from queer circles. One of the shitbags mentioned in the OP’s link says this expressly: They don’t necessarily spend a lot of their time arguing about transgendered people. They don’t necessarily write their stance wrt this issue on the front page of their websites. They don’t necessarily start a conversation by exposing these views. Their perception of transwomen ins’t necessarily a central issue for them. What I’m saying is that many are visible and influential as feminists and women right activists, not as TE, and while their views with regard to women issues and gender relationships is based on the exact same prejudices, falsehoods and dogmas as their views wrt trans people but they are only ever called to task for the latter, while being listened to for the former. > [@](#): > > Feminists don’t oppress other women. These people are not feminists. This is entirely a true Scotsman fallacy. Someone agitating for women rights doesn’t have to share all of your views about those rights or anything else for that matter. On top of which, feminists who feel that they’re entitled to decide what other women should do aren’t by far limited to TERF or even RadFem in general. Feminists who think that they know better than sex workers or BDSM practitioners what sex workers and BDSM practitioners should do with their life or in their bedroom are commonplace. If you were to deny to all of them the name “femisnist”, then you’d reduce a lot the number of feminists, including some whose actions have undeniably improved the situation of women in general. > [@](#): > > And you are wildly underestimating how strongly these women are motivated by bigotry against trans people. No, I don’t think so. The bigotry is evident, but I think it’s for a large part the result and the consequence of their bigotry and hatred towards men, whose existence in the feminist movement is actively denied by many on the left arguing that there can’t be such a thing as reverse sexism. Transwomen are only the fifth column of their real enemy, and they aren’t treated any worse or with anymore prejudice than men are. I’m yet to see (in real life mostly long ago or on the web nowadays) any TE feminist who isn’t filled with prejudice against men too, and in fact primarily. When for instance they make their best to demonstrate that there’s no such thing as men victims of domestic abuse and it’s just a big conspiracy by the MRA, they use the same arguments, the same types of falsehoods and rely on the same dogmas they use to demonstrate that there’s no such thing as transwomen and it’s also just a big conspiracy by men, but their motivations and methods in the first case aren’t questioned or even are uncritically accepted by the same people who immediately perceive the prejudice in the second case. > [@](#): > > WoLF is a hate group. They exist specifically to advocate for discrimination against transwomen. And they’re almost entirely funded by the Heritage Foundation. This isn’t a genuine feminist movement. It’s astroturf. I know nothing about this specific group. > [@](#): > > I trying to figure out what part of this is A) something you think I don’t already know, and B) is remotely exculpatory? Yes, they’re bigots. You have accurately explained the nature of their bigotry. And? If it was you I was responding to originally, then yes I assumed you didn’t know these things, not, on the other hand, that they were exculpatory. I assumed it because I didn’t think that someone familiar with radical feminism and TERFs would believe or state that they aren’t genuine feminists with a genuine concern for women rights. A bit like, say, I would have assumed that someone stating that communists don’t belong to the left and aren’t genuinely concerned with the well being of the workers, but just pretend to be in order to impose a dictatorship doesn’t know anything about communists. And I still think that your view about TERFs not being feminists is a Scotsman fallacy. > [@](#): > > This is like saying, “A racist is someone who treats people like shit because of their race,” and having someone well-actually with, “Racists don’t think blacks are people at all, so your description of them is incorrect.” Which still would be true and important to know. Which makes me think that I forgot to mention earlier wrt your comment about me underestimating their bigotry that I think you might be underestimating the importance of theoretical constructs and political dogma in the views they develop. I couldn’t tell with certainty whether the prejudice precedes the dogma or the other way around, but IME Radfem are extraordinarily heavy on theoretical concepts, at the expense of pragmatism. They tend to be convinced that they own the truth about life, the universe and all the rest, and, like most political extremists, that anything contradicting their dogma isn’t just wrong but presumably an attack of the forces of evil on all that is good and sacred. As such, I think that an assumption that bigotry in the abstract can alone explain their stance is mistaken. They don’t have an issue with transwomen solely (maybe not even primarily) because they randomly dislike transwomen but also because they dare to contradict the dogma, according to which they shouldn’t exist. And they give them the only place that the dogma allows : male infiltrators. > [@](#): > > Feminists support women’s rights. Transwomen are women. Terfs actively work to undercut transwomen’s rights. They slander and libel them. They sometime physically attack them. They’re bigots, full stop. Once again : Scotsman’s fallacy. There’s nothing saying that you can’t be a feminist and a bigot. And same response as usual with regard to “transwomen are women”. You don’t get to decide that the only valid definition of “woman” is “gender self-identification”. As I wrote above in response to another post, this is no different from saying that race is solely determined by self-identification and that anybody identifying as black should be welcomed in the the black community regardless of both physical appearance and life experience. It might be very inclusive of you to think so, but some people are going to disagree with this view, and not just out of hatred. > [@](#): > > Bigotry is often couched in terms of personal safety. I don’t cut an excuse to white feminists who use personal safety as an excuse to discriminate against blacks. Why should I cut cis feminists an excuse when they discriminate against trans people for the same bullshit reason? The question would be : can women legitimately exclude people in general from places, activities, etc…on the basis of their personal safety? If so, what is the legitimate reason that allows them to refuse the presence of men, _exactly_ ? Because whether or not transwomen can be excluded depends on the responses to these questions. For instance is there’s a legitimate and serious concern that allowing a man in is dangerous, then it is legitimate to want to exclude someone who cannot be distinguished from a man. On the other hand, if the danger presented by men isn’t a legitimate concern, then there simply shouldn’t be women-only rooms. And besides, the idea that, assuming that men are inherently dangerous and women inherently not dangerous (so making excluding men a legitimate concern), transwomen would be not dangerous because they’re women rests on the idea that the mental makeup of a transwoman is exactly identical to the mental makeup of a cis woman, an idea that, despite being promoted, is unproven. If only because nobody knows what is the difference, mentally, and if any, between a man and a woman. So, no, I have difficulties envisioning a situation where there would be a legitimate safety concern justifying the exclusion of men that wouldn’t also make the inclusion of transwomen at least open to debate. Same, basically with sports. I can’t see a reason for the existence of separate women sports that wouldn’t also make the inclusion of transwomen at least open to debate. > [@](#): > > Treatment of transwomen is, in fact, directly related to the treatment of women. You can dismiss this as a “article of faith” if you want, but then, “women should be treated the same as men,” is also an article of faith. And let’s be clear, because you muddy the waters on this quite a bit: feminism, radical feminism, and trans-exclusionary radical feminism are not the same thing. I know lots of radical feminists. Several of them are transwomen. None of them are bigots. Radical feminist != Terf. The latter is a small subset of the former, which is itself a small subset of feminism in general. True, not all RadFem are TERFs. But TERFs base their views on the same assumptions RadFems use. And in my view they’re a bit like believers having two different interpretations of the scriptures. One group pushes the interpretation a bit further and as a result makes pronouncements the other group isn’t comfortable with. But in the end they both believe in the same revealed truth, which is sufficiently flawed that it’s no surprise that it leads the first group to these interpretations. Basically, I think that non TERF RadFems claims and reasonings generally aren’t any more valid than, and exactly as faulty as, TERF claims and reasonings even if they disagree on the specific issue of transpeople. In other words, I see TERFs as the natural children of radical feminism, and, to paraphrase the famous Game of Thrones sentence : “If you’re surprised that TERF would be born from radical feminism, you haven’t been paying attention”. > [@](#): > > Where did I say they were insincere about other feminist-related issues? I’m sure they’re honest when they complain about the gender pay gap. Well, even though I don’t remember the exact wording of your post, you implied that they weren’t feminists, which in mind meant that you thought they didn’t really care about women issues, and were only using them as an excuse for trans-bashing. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742/80 "2019-05-10T20:53:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure it could have occurred. A dishonest perv can pretend to be a transwoman, or a transman (or a ciswoman or cisman, for that matter), to gain access to their preferred targets, depending on the “rules”. This doesn’t change because transwomen are allowed to use locker rooms. Liars will lie, and pervs will perv, whatever the rules. This discussion isn’t just about locker rooms. It’s about _all_ female spaces. The strategy you describe will only work in a society which makes it easy for people to self-certify their own gender. Which is why women who (perhaps due to past experiences with men) only feel safe in female spaces can be concerned about the prospect of anatomical males whose predilections they don’t know being granted access to those spaces simply because they’ve declared themselves to be women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-act-is-drawing-opposition-from-feminists-and-conservatives-alike/833742.md?page=5)