# Equality of opportunity does not lead to equality of results **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088 "2019-12-19T15:59:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/41 "2019-12-19T20:35:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Oh, well then I’m okay with that. I’m not the spokesman for the liberal position but, speaking for myself, I believe that there’s no inherent racial connection to merit. I don’t believe that any racial group is inherently better or worse on average than any other racial group. So if one racial group is achieving significantly more or less than the average, I think the answer is outside factors affecting that group rather than inherent traits within the group. Assuming you consider “culture” to be an inherent trait… Let me ask you what “outside” factor you think might be causing the poorest racial group in NYC to significantly outperform the richest racial group in NYC? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/42 "2019-12-19T20:36:47Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I will own this. When the disparity of outcomes is radically different and it closely follows the arbitrary social distinction between races, I very strongly believe that it’s highly suggestive that there was not true or meaningful equality of opportunity. I think it’s a pretty extraordinary claim to say otherwise. I will ask you the same question: What lack of opportunities do the wealthier white children of NYC suffer that the poor asian children of NYC do not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/43 "2019-12-19T20:42:04Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m not so sure it’s all funding though. My kids go to a magnet school that’s 44% black, 23% white, 24% hispanic and the balance being asian and multiracial. The school has a 12.6 student-teacher ratio, and is pretty well funded by the district since it’s one of 3 magnet schools. It’s located in a historically black housing development (not apartments, but rather single-family homes) that’s squarely middle-class, and where the local kids are not subject to the magnet admissions process (i.e. if you live nearby, you go to that school). > > But for some reason, the same exact pattern seems to come out there that you see elsewhere- the white and asian kids blow away the others on testing and in-class performance in pretty much all grades. > > I suspect there are serious cultural issues that cause this- another thing I’ve noticed is that despite the fact that the school is somewhere around 75% minority, nearly all the parental organizations (PTA, Dad’s Club, watchdogs, etc…) are overwhelmingly white parent dominated, as are the actual volunteers for those organizations’ events. > > I think there’s going to have to be some kind of cultural sea change in the black and hispanic communities before we’re going to see similar outcomes w.r.t. education to white people. There is one very important statistic missing from your post: What each group of people earns _per job held_. If group A gets paid so much, and group B has to work 2 or three jobs to get the same amount, then group A will have the free time to join the organizations and volunteer while Group B doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/44 "2019-12-19T20:52:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I will ask you the same question: > > What lack of opportunities do the wealthier white children of NYC suffer that the poor asian children of NYC do not? Maybe they suffer from having _too many_ opportunities? They know they have it made no matter how they do in school. Whereas poorer kids may know that this is their only shot. No Daddy money bags to bail them out, get them into Yale etc… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/45 "2019-12-19T20:53:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know some cultures promote poor choices, or something like that, if we don’t have a fair society with equality of opportunity to test this in? In an equal society, yes, if some groups appeared to be left behind, then culture (or some other group-specific, rather than society-wide thing) must be to blame. But if our society is very unequal in opportunity (as I believe it to be), then how do we know if some group is “behind” due to culture or due to that widespread unfairness? We don’t. There is nothing we can do to make every man love his fellow man like his brother. We can only make fair laws and prohibit discrimination in education and labor. We can’t change the rules of society to correct for private discrimination that exists in the hearts of men, can we? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/46 "2019-12-19T20:57:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We don’t. There is nothing we can do to make every man love his fellow man like his brother. We can only make fair laws and prohibit discrimination in education and labor. We can’t change the rules of society to correct for private discrimination that exists in the hearts of men, can we? I’m all in favor of fair laws, fighting discrimination, etc. I want a fair society with real equality of opportunity. Institutional discrimination is much more harmful than private feelings of bigotry. We haven’t come close to eliminating either one. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/47 "2019-12-19T20:58:00Z")
If we use sports as an example, we can compare Canada and Germany in men’s soccer. Both nations are racially similar (in case someone wants to cite some sports-genetics argument.) Yet Germany has been one of the world’s best soccer nations for 70 years, while Canada has only ever qualified for a World Cup once (in the 1980s, then never again). It’s not because of lack of opportunity - Canada has every FIFA opportunity to qualify for the men’s World Cup - indeed, the CONCACAF structure actually makes it even easier for Canada to get to the World Cup than in Europe’s. It’s not lack of resources - both nations are wealthy, have a talent pool of many thousands of potential athletes they could recruit from, etc. The main argument would be culture; Canada has long been a hockey nation while Germany loves soccer. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/48 "2019-12-19T21:04:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I would like you to elaborate your views on this. > > To keep it simple, let’s focus on just two racial groups in the United States; black Americans and white Americans. Well, that’s probably the worst example to use because discrimination is probably a much larger factor in explaining the disparity there than between any two other groups. If you live in a black and white world then the liberal perspective is much easier to understand. But there are other races and the theory starts to implode a bit when you add the other races. > [@](#): > > Let’s take it as a given that neutral statistics tell us that black Americans are (on a per capita basis) more likely to be convicted of a crime than white Americans; more likely to be incarcerated than white Americans; more likely to be unemployed than white Americans; more likely to collect public assistance than white Americans; more likely to not have a high school diploma white Americans; and more likely to live below the poverty line than white Americans. > > So what do you, personally, attribute these statistics to? Do you feel they are the result of social factors that affect black Americans and that do not affect white Americans? Or do you feel they are the result of inherent differences between black Americans and white Americans? In other words, do you feel that if black Americans grew up in an identical environment to white Americans, they would still on average be more likely to commit crimes, not have a job, drop out of school, and be poor? I think that if discrimination did not exist, then the black community would have a different culture that would lead to a much smaller disparity. I think that discrimination and second class citizenship can lead to criminality, poverty, lower IQ, unemployment, looser morals, low academic achievement. It is hard to overcome, especially if you are black in America. But let me ask you what you think of the fact that the poorest racial group in NYC academically outperforms the richest racial group in NYC. Does that disparity in outcome necessarily mean that poor asians have more opportunities in NYC or that wealthy whites have less opportunity? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/49 "2019-12-19T21:07:21Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If we use sports as an example, we can compare Canada and Germany in men’s soccer. Both nations are racially similar (in case someone wants to cite some sports-genetics argument.) Yet Germany has been one of the world’s best soccer nations for 70 years, while Canada has only ever qualified for a World Cup once (in the 1980s, then never again). It’s not because of lack of opportunity - Canada has every FIFA opportunity to qualify for the men’s World Cup - indeed, the CONCACAF structure actually makes it even easier for Canada to get to the World Cup than in Europe’s. It’s not lack of resources - both nations are wealthy, have a talent pool of many thousands of potential athletes they could recruit from, etc. > > The main argument would be culture; Canada has long been a hockey nation while Germany loves soccer. That makes sense for sports, but I don’t think it makes sense for things like poverty, lower life expectancy, lead poisoning, breathing problems, etc. No culture has a preference for these things over their lack. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/50 "2019-12-19T21:11:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But let me ask you what you think of the fact that the poorest racial group in NYC academically outperforms the richest racial group in NYC. Does that disparity in outcome necessarily mean that poor asians have more opportunities in NYC or that wealthy whites have less opportunity? I wouldn’t look at just one statistic to make this kind of judgement. Do whites in NYC have lower incomes, worse health and life expectancy outcomes, lesser representation among high executives and officials, etc.? Do Asians? If we had all that kind of information, we might be able to determine if there’s any inequality of opportunity relating to these groups. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/51 "2019-12-19T21:18:05Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Maybe they suffer from having _too many_ opportunities? They know they have it made no matter how they do in school. Whereas poorer kids may know that this is their only shot. No Daddy money bags to bail them out, get them into Yale etc… Wait. So your answer is affluenza? Or some close cousin of affluenza? ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/52 "2019-12-19T21:20:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So if culture doesn’t make a difference, how do you explain the poorest racial group in NYC outperforming the richest racial group in NYC? Should we be throwing a little affirmative action towards rich white kids to equalize their opportunities? I consider myself a liberal, and if other liberals disagree with me I would be happy to hear from them as well. I think you’re missing and in fact seem to be actively dismissing the main issue. Culture does make a difference and I believe is THE biggest issue. But that IS an opportunity that needs equalizing. Having parents that value education is way more important than having parents that are rich or geniuses. Dismissing culture as somehow being apart from opportunity fails at the most basic level. Coming from a good culture that values education is not only part of opportunity, it’s the most important factor. ETA. And as mentioned upthread the wealthiest families probably have a culture of relying on their money and connections and caring less about education. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/53 "2019-12-19T21:22:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I would like you to elaborate your views on this. > > To keep it simple, let’s focus on just two racial groups in the United States; black Americans and white Americans. > > Let’s take it as a given that neutral statistics tell us that black Americans are (on a per capita basis) more likely to be convicted of a crime than white Americans; more likely to be incarcerated than white Americans; more likely to be unemployed than white Americans; more likely to collect public assistance than white Americans; more likely to not have a high school diploma white Americans; and more likely to live below the poverty line than white Americans. > > So what do you, personally, attribute these statistics to? Do you feel they are the result of social factors that affect black Americans and that do not affect white Americans? Or do you feel they are the result of inherent differences between black Americans and white Americans? In other words, do you feel that if black Americans grew up in an identical environment to white Americans, they would still on average be more likely to commit crimes, not have a job, drop out of school, and be poor? It feels like we have had this discussion before. Nonetheless, it is a question that lends itself to analysis. Now, we know that single parents, mostly mothers, and their children are disproportionately likely to be in poverty. And likewise that the children of single mothers are disproportionately subject to the various social ills you describe - poorer educational outcomes, higher rates of crime, unemployment, etc. The interesting thing is that this is the case for black and white single mothers alike - both suffer from higher rates of these social ills, for themselves and their children. So now we examine the groups of “black Americans in general” and “white Americans in general” and see if, for instance, there is a difference in incidence of single parenting, mostly mothers. If one group experiences single parenthood at 40%, and the other at 73%, one would predict that the group at 73% would be disproportionately suffering from the various social ills. And sure enough, that’s what we see. No inherent factors needed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/54 "2019-12-19T21:22:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It’s not purely driven by wealth. The poorest racial group in NYC has higher academic achievement than the richest racial group in NYC. > > If you include how people parent their children as a form of opportunity then you are effectively including culture as part of someone’s opportunity. But people don’t usually say having good parents is a form of opportunity disparity because they think it’s racist to say one group is better at parenting than another. Of course it’s not only driven by wealth – I was using that as an example. Racial prejudice (positive and negative), sexism, culture, etc., all play a part as well. It’s not that I don’t believe you, but can you provide a cite for the NYC thing you’ve mentioned several times now? It’s not all that relevant, since NYC isn’t everything and income is just one factor that can lead to differences in opportunity. But, I’m still curious which weird statistical thing you’ve discovered. Anyway, OP – If you can’t use results to try and find differences in opportunity among broad groups, how do you propose trying to find those differences in opportunity? Do you think there’s value in eliminating such differences? Differences in results is a nice, measurable proxy, imperfect though it is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/55 "2019-12-19T21:53:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wouldn’t look at just one statistic to make this kind of judgement. Do whites in NYC have lower incomes, worse health and life expectancy outcomes, lesser representation among high executives and officials, etc.? Do Asians? If we had all that kind of information, we might be able to determine if there’s any inequality of opportunity relating to these groups. So you don’t know whether or not to consider this unequal results? What if I said that hispanics also underperformed asians academically in NYC, would that be the result of a lack of opportunity or would you go through the same exercise? What if the result was that hispanics had lower life expectancy that asians but higher than whites (asians and hispanics generally have longer life expectancy than whites) and hispanics were over-represented in elected office and political appointments. At some point you are just making excuses to keep believing what you want to believe aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/56 "2019-12-19T21:57:19Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I consider myself a liberal, and if other liberals disagree with me I would be happy to hear from them as well. I think you’re missing and in fact seem to be actively dismissing the main issue. Culture does make a difference and I believe is THE biggest issue. But that IS an opportunity that needs equalizing. Having parents that value education is way more important than having parents that are rich or geniuses. Dismissing culture as somehow being apart from opportunity fails at the most basic level. Coming from a good culture that values education is not only part of opportunity, it’s the most important factor. > > ETA. And as mentioned upthread the wealthiest families probably have a culture of relying on their money and connections and caring less about education. So you think we need to provide more opportunities to the children of parents that don’t value education in order to equalize the benefit that kids with better parents enjoy? Are you ducking kidding? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/57 "2019-12-19T22:01:59Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Of course it’s not only driven by wealth – I was using that as an example. Racial prejudice (positive and negative), sexism, culture, etc., all play a part as well. > > It’s not that I don’t believe you, but can you provide a cite for the NYC thing you’ve mentioned several times now? It’s not all that relevant, since NYC isn’t everything and income is just one factor that can lead to differences in opportunity. But, I’m still curious which weird statistical thing you’ve discovered. > > Anyway, OP – If you can’t use results to try and find differences in opportunity among broad groups, how do you propose trying to find those differences in opportunity? Do you think there’s value in eliminating such differences? Differences in results is a nice, measurable proxy, imperfect though it is. > **[Asian-Americans Have Highest Poverty Rate In NYC, But Stereotypes Make The...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/asian-american-poverty-nyc_n_58ff7f40e4b0c46f0782a5b6)** > > “The model minority myth chooses to highlight the successful immigrant examples and brush aside the high rates of poverty," one expert says. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/58 "2019-12-19T22:02:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I wouldn’t. > > If you give women and men equal opportunities to live and work exactly how they choose with no barriers at all, I would be very surprised if we saw gender participation in all activities at 50/50 Maybe? I don’t know how you’d go about proving that. However, I’m sure we agree that the disparity would be much, much less. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/59 "2019-12-19T22:09:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you think we need to provide more opportunities to the children of parents that don’t value education in order to equalize the benefit that kids with better parents enjoy? > > Are you ducking kidding? Of course I think that. The way to do so, however, is by changing those cultures so that they do value education. Are you saying that those cultures where parents are less likely to value education should continue to place a low value on education? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/60 "2019-12-19T22:13:03Z")
The problem I see is in talking about black or Asian or white culture. What does that even mean? I teach at a prestigious public magnet school. We are about 15% Asian. About half those kids come from the same neighborhood. Its very professional class, and its half Asian, almost entirely South Indian. If you want to talk about the shared culture of those kids, I’m happy to do it. And I’m happy to talk about the impact it has on education. But the other half of the Asian kids we serve, including the South Indian ones, come from all over the city, have all sorts of different backgrounds, and very different family and local cultures. In the same way, I know communities of black professionals who will out Tiger mom any Asian parent you ever met; white communities where not being a jock would be much more shameful than not being National Merit. Asian groups that are ashamed of the kid who abandons his family to go to college instead of getting a job right now. So assigning “culture” to a huge % of the world and using that to explain disparity of outcome seems insane to me. There are absolutely smaller groups that have cultures that shape outcomes, but extrapolating that to explain differences in outcome across the nation makes no sense. As far as the disparity in NYC, I’d look to see if there are even smaller groups that do have a shared culture that are shaping the results. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088.md?page=4)