# Equality of opportunity does not lead to equality of results **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088 "2019-12-19T15:59:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/141 "2019-12-20T20:26:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nigerian immigrants do even better, academically, than Asians, statistically: [Data show Nigerians the most educated in the U.S.](https://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php) > > [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn-t-just-asian-immigrants-who-excel-in-the-u-s-) Yes, and look at how hard they work. Look at how much emphasis they put on education. Look at the sacrifices they make for their children’s education. If holding up asians is going to be distasteful to black communities, then lets use nigerians as the example of how culture can make a difference. I only use asians because even with as little statstical data we collect about asians, we collect even less about nigerians. But by all means, lets infuse every black community with nigerians culture. > [@](#): > > Is there some innate superiority in Nigerian culture? Yes, I believe so. > [@](#): > > Should I bring up Nigerian culture as the superior culture that every group should seek to emulate, and the existence of this culture proves that all groups with less success simply don’t have the strength of culture that those magnificent Nigerians have? Yes, bring it up. There are elements of nigerian culture that many communities including 3rd generation asians would benefit from adopting. > [@](#): > > Or is this some interesting but odd outlier statistic that doesn’t really have much to do with culture, but rather the circumstances that these immigrants happen to face and experience? I think we can learn from it. Unless you tell me that Nigerians are a self selected group like South Asians who are primarily here on h1B visas or something, their culture is probably a big part of their success. > [@](#): > > Seems like the latter to me. Or maybe I can just bring up the supposed superiority of Nigerian culture to Asian culture any time culture finagles its way into these conversations. Well, if talking about asians upsets you because it makes you feel like its a bit of racism, then by all means lets replace asian culture with nigerian culture and talk about how blacks might improve their lot by emulating some aspects of nigerian culture. I’m not familiar with nigerian culture but if their parents make sacrifices like caribbean parents do. Work multiple jobs and drive shitty cars so their kids can have more educational opportunities. Then by all means lets hold up the nigerians as the example for blacks to follow. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/142 "2019-12-20T20:28:02Z")
I’ll amend my above statement to point out that the system does harm Asians in many ways, just perhaps not academically. It’s part of our broader system that Asians are funneled into certain career paths, and away from others. And having certain gender roles, and how they are portrayed in the media. And probably a lot more unfair stuff that Asians are familiar with but I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/143 "2019-12-20T20:29:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, equality of opportunity can be measured in holding everyone to the same criteria - i.e., everyone is invited to try out for the high school football team through physical tryouts that test people’s 40-yard dash, weight lifting, skill in catching a football, etc. This is done without bias, nepotism or favoritism - in other words, it would \*\*\*not \*\*\*be equal opportunity for the coach to say, “Adam ran a 4.2 dash in the forty, but I’m going to keep him off the roster in favor of Michael, who ran a much slower 5.1, because Michael is the principal’s son.” > > This equal opportunity doesn’t mean an equal chance of success - some people are simply born slow, or maybe handicapped, or can’t catch a ball with their hands to save their life - but **the opportunity is offered to everyone.** I think the problem with your example is that you are talking about innate ability and I don’t think its intentional but that makes it seem like there are innate differences that no amount of effort or preference will overcome. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/144 "2019-12-20T20:29:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, and look at how hard they work. Look at how much emphasis they put on education. Look at the sacrifices they make for their children’s education. If holding up asians is going to be distasteful to black communities, then lets use nigerians as the example of how culture can make a difference. > > I only use asians because even with as little statstical data we collect about asians, we collect even less about nigerians. But by all means, lets infuse every black community with nigerians culture. > > Yes, I believe so. > > Yes, bring it up. There are elements of nigerian culture that many communities including 3rd generation asians would benefit from adopting. > > I think we can learn from it. Unless you tell me that Nigerians are a self selected group like South Asians who are primarily here on h1B visas or something, their culture is probably a big part of their success. > > Well, if talking about asians upsets you because it makes you feel like its a bit of racism, then by all means lets replace asian culture with nigerian culture and talk about how blacks might improve their lot by emulating some aspects of nigerian culture. > > I’m not familiar with nigerian culture but if their parents make sacrifices like caribbean parents do. Work multiple jobs and drive shitty cars so their kids can have more educational opportunities. Then by all means lets hold up the nigerians as the example for blacks to follow. Of course they’re self selected! The vast majority of immigrants are self selected. The best and brightest, especially the further and harder it is to get here. That’s why immigration is so awesome and we should encourage it! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/145 "2019-12-20T20:35:31Z")
It’s no coincidence at all that the two groups in the US at the bottom of most statistical indicators (black Americans and native Americans) are the only two groups who had no choice at all about coming to America. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/146 "2019-12-20T20:43:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think culture is necessarily separate from opportunity. Black people live in American culture. How they are treated is part of their opportunity. And you’ve presented no evidence that black culture doesn’t value education, or promotes crime or laziness, etc. You’re just assuming that lesser outcomes somehow indicate something about culture. Everyone claims to value education. But they don’t, not the same way. Nigerians value education far more than others. They make more sacrifices for education. They focus on education over other aspects of their children’s lives and this has resulted in a lot of academic success for Nigerians. There is plenty of racism and the legacy of racism weighs heavily on the black community but if they could assimilate some of the monomaniacal focus that the nigerians have on education, their politicians would respond with better schools and libraries. Their children will have better academic results and earn higher incomes. Their grandchildren will be raised in homes free from want or lack of opportunity. Do you think blacks value education as much as the nigerians do? > [@](#): > > You said deficient cultures die out. Are you saying that black culture isn’t deficient? Or that it won’t die out? I’m saying it’s ridiculous to blame culture for groups dying out, and showing examples for groups that quite obviously didn’t die out due to a deficient culture. it’s not the only reason cultures die out. The Spartans lost the Peloponnesian War. Carthage lost their war. etc. But over time the good elements of cultures get adopted and the bad elements fade away. > [@](#): > > The system doesn’t care about racism - it doesn’t care about white or black or Asian people. It cares about protecting and serving the wealthy and powerful. Racism is a very useful tool for that, but not all types of racism. Asians are relative newcomers in any significant numbers to most of the country - perhaps the system hasn’t found them to be a threat. Perhaps their numbers are too small to worry the wealthy and powerful, or perhaps the wealthy and powerful would prefer to recruit Asians rather than set others against them. I don’t know. I just know that we’re not special. You’re not special. We’re all just human, and there’s nothing special about the present. The same rules and trends through history still apply. These little conflicts, including nonsense about supposedly toxic cultures of millions of Americans, are just tools for the rich and powerful. The real enemy of opportunity for all is the system. That’s a lot of bilderberger level conspiracy woo. Hard work and sacrifice makes a difference and some cultures are more ready to invest that hard work and make those sacrifices than others. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/147 "2019-12-20T20:43:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think the problem with your example is that you are talking about innate ability and I don’t think its intentional but that makes it seem like there are innate differences that no amount of effort or preference will overcome. Fair enough, sports may not be the best choice. Culturally, though, one example may be how an overwhelming number of spelling bees are being won by Indian-American contestants of late. It’s not that other ethnic/racial groups aren’t capable of competing, but clearly there is some cultural/societal factor at work - they value competing in such competitions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/148 "2019-12-20T20:44:34Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > So we’re back to “black people suck”, but it’s not genetic – it’s that black people are predisposed to generate a shitty culture that produces people that suck. Yes. of course. That’s what I said.:rolleyes: Get back to me when you have something to say, an argument to make some insight to share, etc. the bars not that high but there is a bar. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/149 "2019-12-20T20:45:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe, but when the system is so massively tilted and unfair, I see no possibility of evaluating the effects of different cultures on achievement. None are so blinds as those who will not see. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/150 "2019-12-20T20:47:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I agree. > > Cite? Umm academic success=higher income higher income leads to more happiness (to a point) which of those controversial points would you like a cite for? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/151 "2019-12-20T21:07:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Everyone claims to value education. But they don’t, not the same way. Nigerians value education far more than others. They make more sacrifices for education. They focus on education over other aspects of their children’s lives and this has resulted in a lot of academic success for Nigerians. There is plenty of racism and the legacy of racism weighs heavily on the black community but if they could assimilate some of the monomaniacal focus that the nigerians have on education, their politicians would respond with better schools and libraries. Their children will have better academic results and earn higher incomes. Their grandchildren will be raised in homes free from want or lack of opportunity. > > Do you think blacks value education as much as the nigerians do? Absolutely. I’ve seen no reason to believe otherwise, especially when these two groups reach consist of tens of millions of people. And, quite obviously, Nigerians are considered “black” in America. > [@](#): > > That’s a lot of bilderberger level conspiracy woo. > > Hard work and sacrifice makes a difference and some cultures are more ready to invest that hard work and make those sacrifices than others. You’re not actually arguing against anything I said here. There’s nothing special about you, or me, or your culture, or mine, or the present, or America. We’re all just human beings. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/152 "2019-12-20T21:08:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > None are so blinds as those who will not see. Another argument-free post. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/153 "2019-12-20T21:24:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Fair enough, sports may not be the best choice. > > Culturally, though, one example may be how an overwhelming number of spelling bees are being won by Indian-American contestants of late. It’s not that other ethnic/racial groups aren’t capable of competing, but clearly there is some cultural/societal factor at work - they value competing in such competitions. But the vast majority of Indian Americans don’t value spelling bees. So looking at the success of Indian Americans in spelling bees and extrapolating that this huge ethnic group has this value is wholly inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/154 "2019-12-20T21:26:02Z")
**iiandyiiii** - thanks for the cites. > [@UltraVires](#): > > To play a bit of a devil’s advocate, I think the idea is that if you had equality of opportunity then you wouldn’t have such an elevated illegitimate birth rate in the second group so everything should sort itself out unless one is contending that the second group has such an innate characteristic as to have these increased birth rates regardless of opportunity. If that were the case - that there was something inherent about the group - the illegitimate birth rate wouldn’t vary as equality of opportunity varied. Which is very much not the case - the illegitimacy rate used to be much lower among African Americans, but increased markedly at the same time as Jim Crow and overt discrimination was reduced or eliminated. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action). Black illegitimacy rates were always higher than those of whites, but in 1940 it was less than 20%. Currently it is over 70%. I don’t think it can be credibly argued that black people have the same or less equality of opportunity in 2019 than they did in 1940. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/155 "2019-12-20T21:32:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Umm > academic success=higher income > higher income leads to more happiness (to a point) > > which of those controversial points would you like a cite for? As I said before, academic success correlates with happiness. ETA, I should be clear that I’m questioning whether academic success in high school/college has much to do with happiness later in life. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/156 "2019-12-20T21:43:27Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But the vast majority of Indian Americans don’t value spelling bees. So looking at the success of Indian Americans in spelling bees and extrapolating that this huge ethnic group has this value is wholly inaccurate. I didn’t mean that \*all \*Indian-Americans have this value; you’ll never get all of people in on something. But clearly there is \*something \*that makes the overwhelming majority of spelling-bee champions Indian-Americans of late. It’s not higher “English IQ” - indeed, you’d logically expect Anglo-Americans to be champs at this. It’s not financial advantage - they aren’t particularly moneyed, nor does money make much difference in spelling. It’s not because the Bee rules are skewed in their favor. Whatever it is, **it’s not lack of equal opportunity for the other racial/ethnic groups.** ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/157 "2019-12-20T21:44:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IMHO, equality of opportunity can be measured in holding everyone to the same criteria - i.e., everyone is invited to try out for the high school football team through physical tryouts that test people’s 40-yard dash, weight lifting, skill in catching a football, etc. This is done without bias, nepotism or favoritism - in other words, it would \*\*\*not \*\*\*be equal opportunity for the coach to say, “Adam ran a 4.2 dash in the forty, but I’m going to keep him off the roster in favor of Michael, who ran a much slower 5.1, because Michael is the principal’s son.” > > This equal opportunity doesn’t mean an equal chance of success - some people are simply born slow, or maybe handicapped, or can’t catch a ball with their hands to save their life - but **the opportunity is offered to everyone.** But even that is not equal opportunity. One kid may be well fed, and the other skin and bones because his family has little money and they only have 2 meals a day. One kid may have had a series of childhood illnesses because his family can’t afford healthcare. The other kid had all his shots. You think the hungry kid has an equal opportunity at beating a healthy well fed kid? In this situation you cannot compare the race results in any meaningful way. In some ways society is like your 40 yd dash, except everyone has the same finish line, but some have to run over a track with potholes and angled uphill. Think the kid who had the straight flat course is somehow a better achiever? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/158 "2019-12-20T21:56:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **iiandyiiii** - thanks for the cites. > > If that were the case - that there was something inherent about the group - the illegitimate birth rate wouldn’t vary as equality of opportunity varied. Which is very much not the case - the illegitimacy rate used to be much lower among African Americans, but increased markedly at the same time as Jim Crow and overt discrimination was reduced or eliminated. [Cite](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action). > > Black illegitimacy rates were always higher than those of whites, but in 1940 it was less than 20%. Currently it is over 70%. I don’t think it can be credibly argued that black people have the same or less equality of opportunity in 2019 than they did in 1940. > > Regards, > > Shodan I don’t have the cites handy (but I’ve used them before, so I can find them again), but per capita, significantly fewer unmarried black women are giving birth, year by year, over the past couple of decades. Fewer black children are born to single mothers every year. So whatever is happening, due to culture or broader society or whatever, it’s leading to fewer unmarried births from black women. So that days would actually be consistent with that hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/159 "2019-12-20T22:15:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t have the cites handy (but I’ve used them before, so I can find them again), but per capita, significantly fewer unmarried black women are giving birth, year by year, over the past couple of decades. Fewer black children are born to single mothers every year. So whatever is happening, due to culture or broader society or whatever, it’s leading to fewer unmarried births from black women. So that days would actually be consistent with that hypothesis. That last sentence should read “that data would…” and I’m referring to the hypothesis that discrimination leads to increased illegitimate births. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/160 "2019-12-21T03:13:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > culture is a significant difference between races Culture is not a difference, significant or otherwise, between “races”. Every group identified as a “race” contains multiple cultures. Most cultures contain people of multiple “races”. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do you think blacks value education as much as the nigerians do?. Nigerian cultures (there are more than one) ARE black cultures. Your question translates to ‘do you think black people value education as much as black people do?’ It’s nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088.md?page=9)