# Equality of opportunity does not lead to equality of results **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088 "2019-12-19T15:59:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/161 "2019-12-21T15:21:55Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Culture is not a difference, significant or otherwise, between “races”. > > Every group identified as a “race” contains multiple cultures. > > Most cultures contain people of multiple “races”. > > Nigerian cultures (there are more than one) ARE black cultures. > > Your question translates to ‘do you think black people value education as much as black people do?’ It’s nonsense. You have to remember, like many people he takes that old Chris Rock routine to heart. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/162 "2019-12-21T15:53:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In what way is stating your conclusion = taking you out of context. You seem to believe that equality of opportunity=equality of outcome. Velocity’s OP is a clear strawman, taking a minority view as representing all liberals, and then misrepresenting/misunderstanding that view as well. Even though I don’t agree with the outlier version of the viewpoint, I thought it worth explaining where Velocity was going wrong in his analysis. That’s why I wrote “Someone holding the position that …” If I wrote “A racist may think _inequality of outcome necessarily implies an inequality of ability_”, would you quote only the italicized part and believe I was flip-flopping? You pared down a text where I specifically presented arguments for “someone’s” views, and stated they were my beliefs. How you cannot see that is removing context is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/163 "2019-12-21T16:42:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s plenty that individuals can do to make their lives better, regardless of race, in most circumstances. When it comes to big group outcomes, it’s the system that is to blame, not the individual decisions of millions, most of whom are decent people just trying to do the best they can. So what is it about the system that favors nigerians but oppresses most other blacks so much? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/164 "2019-12-21T16:59:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So what is it about the system that favors nigerians but oppresses most other blacks so much? There could be many possibilities, and it would be hard to know with any certainty without further focused study. It could be some innate Nigerian cultural superiority that somehow only expresses itself in Nigerian immigrants to the US; it could be that we’re getting the best and brightest of Nigeria (which seems by far the most likely to me, and could also be at least part of the explanation for statistical high achievement among Asian Americans); it could be some complex interaction of certain types of anti-black discrimination that somehow “backfire” and work the other way with certain black immigrants; it could be something I haven’t thought of. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/165 "2019-12-21T18:44:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll amend my above statement to point out that the system does harm Asians in many ways, just perhaps not academically. It’s part of our broader system that Asians are funneled into certain career paths, and away from others. “Asians were funneled into certain career paths and away from others” By who? Did white racists decide that asians should become well paid engineers, doctors, lawyers accountant and pharmacists? Or are you saying their parents funneled them into those career paths because parents doing it seems like culture, yet again. > [@](#): > > And having certain gender roles, and how they are portrayed in the media. The media thing has been changing slowly. The export of k-pop and k-drama and anime and stuff like that has changed the conversation. The economic power of asians here and abroad is changing how media views asians. There are real economic consequences to overt media racism against asians so you don’t see two > [@](#): > > And probably a lot more unfair stuff that Asians are familiar with but I’m not. Why do you think there is such a disparity in how much people understand antui-black racism compared to anti-asian racism? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/166 "2019-12-21T18:46:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe, but when the system is so massively tilted and unfair, I see no possibility of evaluating the effects of different cultures on achievement. The system is clearly tilted and unfair but not massively so (things are significantly improved from when I was a kid, so much so that there is no measurable race based impediment to college attendance or graduation, no measurable race baswed impediment to housing or borrowing, no impediment to seeking the highest elected office in the land). Many of the problems plaguing the black community today is the result of poverty (which is a legacy of PAST racism) and culture (which is at least in part also the legacy of past racism (and conservatives would say Democratic welfare policies encouraging single parent households). Neither of these are permanent or innate. The problems caused by present day racism are real but are not massive (IMO) and they do not eclipse the role that poverty and culture play (IMO). Racism might be why blacks are poor but it is not what keeps them poor. Wealth has inertia and unless you fight that inertia, poor children become poor adults. The black community is in a hole but there are ropes to climb out of that hole. Plenty of white folks want to see blacks come out of that hole but white folks are not going to jump down into that hole to push blacks up even though they’re the ones that threw blacks in the hole in the first place. They have good intentions but their good intentions tend to evaporate when they have to make real and personal sacrifices (see brooklyn school redistricting meetings). There are elements of their culture that could be modified to help them climb out of that hole. Presumably Nigerians are subject to the same present day racism that other blacks in this country are and yet they are thriving at least in some part due to their culture. If the black community could somehow modify their culture to mimic Nigerian culture, it might make a difference. Sure changing culture is difficult but we’ve been trying to change the hearts and minds of racists for a pretty long time, maybe we can try something else? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/167 "2019-12-21T18:54:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s no coincidence at all that the two groups in the US at the bottom of most statistical indicators (black Americans and native Americans) are the only two groups who had no choice at all about coming to America. So, I will bring up the Vietnamese refugees yet again. It is difficult to argue that vietnamese refugees are not a cross section of the vietnamese population. What makes the black and native american race discussion different than say the hispanics is the genocide and centuries of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/168 "2019-12-21T19:06:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > “Asians were funneled into certain career paths and away from others” > > By who? > > Did white racists decide that asians should become well paid engineers, doctors, lawyers accountant and pharmacists? > > Or are you saying their parents funneled them into those career paths because parents doing it seems like culture, yet again. I’m sure you know more about these things than I do. I won’t comment on characteristics of Asian culture and discrimination that I don’t know much about. > [@](#): > > Why do you think there is such a disparity in how much people understand antui-black racism compared to anti-asian racism? This shouldn’t be at all surprising when there have been so many more black american in America, and for longer (in very large numbers) than Asians, as well as the enormous influence of events like slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow/segregation, and the Civil Rights movement, and this should be pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/169 "2019-12-21T19:08:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The system is clearly tilted and unfair but not massively so (things are significantly improved from when I was a kid, so much so that there is no measurable race based impediment to college attendance or graduation, no measurable race baswed impediment to housing or borrowing, no impediment to seeking the highest elected office in the land). Many of the problems plaguing the black community today is the result of poverty (which is a legacy of PAST racism) and culture (which is at least in part also the legacy of past racism (and conservatives would say Democratic welfare policies encouraging single parent households). > > Neither of these are permanent or innate. The problems caused by present day racism are real but are not massive (IMO) and they do not eclipse the role that poverty and culture play (IMO). Racism might be why blacks are poor but it is not what keeps them poor. > > Wealth has inertia and unless you fight that inertia, poor children become poor adults. The black community is in a hole but there are ropes to climb out of that hole. Plenty of white folks want to see blacks come out of that hole but white folks are not going to jump down into that hole to push blacks up even though they’re the ones that threw blacks in the hole in the first place. They have good intentions but their good intentions tend to evaporate when they have to make real and personal sacrifices (see brooklyn school redistricting meetings). > > There are elements of their culture that could be modified to help them climb out of that hole. Presumably Nigerians are subject to the same present day racism that other blacks in this country are and yet they are thriving at least in some part due to their culture. If the black community could somehow modify their culture to mimic Nigerian culture, it might make a difference. We don’t see things the same way here, but we’ve rehashed that again and again in other threads. > [@](#): > > Sure changing culture is difficult but we’ve been trying to change the hearts and minds of racists for a pretty long time, maybe we can try something else? I still think there’s plenty of stuff to do with regards to public policy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/170 "2019-12-21T19:20:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Absolutely. This may be the source of your misunderstanding. Different groups place different value on education and there are consequences to those differences in priorities. > [@](#): > > I’ve seen no reason to believe otherwise, especially when these two groups reach consist of tens of millions of people. And, quite obviously, Nigerians are considered “black” in America. And yet nigerians behave very differently towards education than most other blacks. They make sacrifices that most other blacks (and whites for that matter) would probably consider crazy. I don’t know many nigerian families but I know a lot of caribbean families and they place significant emphasis on the value of education and hard work. The parents make significant sacrifices to promote those values. They will drive shitty cars, wear discount clothing, avoid eating out, basically avoid any luxury or extravagance in order to have the resources to maximize educational opportunities. This behavior is not universal but it is very common among the caribbean families I know. It was not anywhere close to being universal behavior in some predominantly black neighborhoods. Once again, I am not saying they are bad people, or lazy or anything like that, but there is a difference in priorities and other choices being made. > [@](#): > > You’re not actually arguing against anything I said here. There’s nothing special about you, or me, or your culture, or mine, or the present, or America. We’re all just human beings. Yes, human beings that make different choices driven in part by our culture. Choices that have lifelong consequences for the individual and their community. We can all be human beings and still achieve different results based on the different choices we make due to our culture. It’s no fault of the black kid that he was born into a culture with toxic elements that diminish his ability to succeed academically and in life. All the excuse making in the world is not going to help that kid succeed by one iota. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/171 "2019-12-21T19:21:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Is there anyone on this thread or any other that has made this claim? ANYONE? Or are you just setting up straw men so you can label anyone that disagrees with you as a racist? I’ve noticed there are a lot of people who work really hard to avoid saying it out loud. But everything they are willing to say out loud is evidence of what they believe. You can judge what a person’s beliefs are by what they say and do, even if they won’t admit to those beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/172 "2019-12-21T19:25:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As I said before, academic success correlates with happiness. ETA, I should be clear that I’m questioning whether academic success in high school/college has much to do with happiness later in life. So I said: academic success=higher income higher income leads to more happiness (to a point) According to the transitive property if A=B and B=C then A=C [https://www.mathwords.com/t/transitive\_property.htm](https://www.mathwords.com/t/transitive_property.htm) S if academic success=income and income=happiness then academic success=happiness. Does that make more sense to you now? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/173 "2019-12-21T19:32:37Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > But even that is not equal opportunity. One kid may be well fed, and the other skin and bones because his family has little money and they only have 2 meals a day. One kid may have had a series of childhood illnesses because his family can’t afford healthcare. The other kid had all his shots. You think the hungry kid has an equal opportunity at beating a healthy well fed kid? What country are you talking about? Are you udner the impression that children in this country suffer from malnutrition? Or lack of health care? Bwana indeed. > [@](#): > > In this situation you cannot compare the race results in any meaningful way. In some ways society is like your 40 yd dash, except everyone has the same finish line, but some have to run over a track with potholes and angled uphill. Think the kid who had the straight flat course is somehow a better achiever? What arent the potholes slowing down the nigerians? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/174 "2019-12-21T19:36:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This may be the source of your misunderstanding. Different groups place different value on education and there are consequences to those differences in priorities. So far you’re just stating this, over and over again, without actual data that supports your claim that certain “cultures” (of millions of people with massively different lives that you’re just lumping altogether!) value education more or less. I have black folks in my family. They have very advanced degrees (far more than me), and did considerably better in school than me. Is their culture not authentically black? Are they somehow less black than folks who didn’t do as well academically? Did they somehow go against their culture? If not, then what are you saying about “black culture”, and how do my family members fit into this culture? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/175 "2019-12-21T19:37:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What arent the potholes slowing down the nigerians? They may well be. Maybe they’d be doing even better if our society was really fair. We just don’t know, considering how unfair our society is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/176 "2019-12-21T19:51:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t have the cites handy (but I’ve used them before, so I can find them again), but per capita, significantly fewer unmarried black women are giving birth, year by year, over the past couple of decades. Fewer black children are born to single mothers every year. So whatever is happening, due to culture or broader society or whatever, it’s leading to fewer unmarried births from black women. So that days would actually be consistent with that hypothesis. Do you think that might have anything to do with the steadily increasing population of college educated black women? I’m curious if there has been some study done to suss out the effect of this heigher education among black women and the rate of single parenthood. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/177 "2019-12-21T19:54:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Culture is not a difference, significant or otherwise, between “races”. > > Every group identified as a “race” contains multiple cultures. > > Most cultures contain people of multiple “races”. > > Nigerian cultures (there are more than one) ARE black cultures. > > Your question translates to ‘do you think black people value education as much as black people do?’ It’s nonsense. Maybe you don’t know this but we were talking in the context of america and there is an identifiable black culture here that can be distinguished form nigerian culture and caribbean culture etc. even though these are all black populations. Unless you are just being silly and trying to nitpick a stupid point, in which case pretend i never responded to you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/178 "2019-12-21T19:55:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do you think that might have anything to do with the steadily increasing population of college educated black women? I’m curious if there has been some study done to suss out the effect of this heigher education among black women and the rate of single parenthood. It may very well. I don’t know. I started a thread last year about data that suggests that discrimination and oppression is enormously harmful to black boys and young men, but possibly significantly less so to black women, in terms of impacts on statistics: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=852276](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=852276) According to that data (and as I said in that thread), there’s something in society that specifically and very significantly, reduces the chances of success for black boys, but not black girls, no matter their background. Rich black boys and poor black boys are equally affected by this, but black girls do not seem to be (rather, black girls and women face other significant challenges but not these specific things, whatever they are, that are doing enormous harm to black boys). Also, the study linked in that thread talks about Asian kids: Asians with US-born mothers have income distributions/attainments as compared to their parents roughly close to white Americans. But Asians with foreign-born mothers have income distribution/attainments much, much higher, on average. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/179 "2019-12-21T19:58:47Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Velocity’s OP is a clear strawman, taking a minority view as representing all liberals, and then misrepresenting/misunderstanding that view as well. Even though I don’t agree with the outlier version of the viewpoint, I thought it worth explaining where Velocity was going wrong in his analysis. That’s why I wrote “Someone holding the position that …” > > If I wrote “A racist may think _inequality of outcome necessarily implies an inequality of ability_”, would you quote only the italicized part and believe I was flip-flopping? > > You pared down a text where I specifically presented arguments for “someone’s” views, and stated they were my beliefs. How you cannot see that is removing context is beyond me. Oh OK. I see what you are saying now. I thought you were saying that this was your view. So does that mean that you do not believe that equality of opportunity between races would generally lead to equality of outcome between races? And regardless of whether or not it is a minority view, it is shaping policy in Democratic places controlled by Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088/180 "2019-12-21T20:01:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There could be many possibilities, and it would be hard to know with any certainty without further focused study. It could be some innate Nigerian cultural superiority that somehow only expresses itself in Nigerian immigrants to the US; it could be that we’re getting the best and brightest of Nigeria (which seems by far the most likely to me, and could also be at least part of the explanation for statistical high achievement among Asian Americans); it could be some complex interaction of certain types of anti-black discrimination that somehow “backfire” and work the other way with certain black immigrants; it could be something I haven’t thought of. Well at least you’re admitting that culture is a possibility. I’ll call that progress. And are you under the impression that nigerians in nigeria do not value education as much as they do here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equality-of-opportunity-does-not-lead-to-equality-of-results/845088.md?page=10)