# "Equity" comes to schools in Vancouver **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2021, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533 "2021-06-18T11:24:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/81 "2021-06-21T16:31:33Z")
No, an independent school is not the same thing as a private school. It is a school that has a different curriculum to the national one. And the curriculum at that independent school is the one I do advocate for nationally, so where’s the hypocrisy? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/82 "2021-06-21T16:33:49Z")
How did your kids get into that independent school? Can any kids go to it? Or do you have to pay more? Is there an application process? Or perhaps you need to have the skills to work the system, which minorities and immigrants don’t have. Either way, your privilege is showing. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/83 "2021-06-21T16:35:38Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And what if the disparate results of the mimority group is being caused by a different system - say, one that encourages single parent families, that champions value systems that decry such ‘white’ thinking as studying hard and being on time, or that they come from violent neighborhoods without good role models and their peers disdain education? I appreciate the point you are trying to make, but don’t really want to discuss it in this thread. I have opinions about the “minority culture” argument, but don’t see it as particularly helpful here. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Whatever you choose as the measurement, it then tends to distort outcomes as teachers adapt their teaching to it. You get teaching to the test and the neglect of any area not measured. It’s a fair point, as well as the one regarding the impossibility of removing SES-bias in our outcomes, but I do think that there is a decent amount of evidence that tracking by ability/aptitude/test scores at a young age (read: pre-10th grade or so) has negative impacts across the board, and particularly for disadvantaged students. I think it’s worth trying to come up with systems that limits the impact of that while still allowing for acceleration where it’s advised. I do think at some point in your post you blur the lines between equity and equality. There is a reason the focus is on equity - it is widely understood that equality of outcomes is just not possible (or even desirable) given the differences in backgrounds, family support, underlying ability, etc. But I do think it’s fair claim that pulling out certain kids and grouping them with other kids that are “like them” (in theory based on ability, but often that’s just a proxy for background) can be harmful both to those students and the students “left behind”, and fails the test of giving all students equitable opportunities to learn. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/84 "2021-06-21T16:36:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …with infinite resources (or even just _sufficient_ resources), this makes some sense. But that’s fairyland. Here in the real word, you advocate for taking limited resources and dividing them unequally. You are _not_ for equality, and to continue to pretend otherwise is some transparent bullshit. Related to that, [I did find in reading articles about the issue that in Vancouver there has been a reduction of students in the gifted program](https://www.timescolonist.com/news/b-c/b-c-s-gifted-students-overlooked-experts-say-1.1703910), there are several explanations about it, but some point to less resources available to ID gifted students to the observation that several of those gifted had other issues: being gifted does not mean that a student is gifted in all subjects. Just this item demonstrates how simplistic is the complaining by the OP here. But I digress, the point here is related to what you pointed out, resources are not infinite, and with the reality of fewer students being involved in gifted programs, it points to one reason why this is ending: Since there are fewer students using the program the cancellation of the old gifted program should be considered when other ways to help gifted students can be added. (And past discussions showed that other options or solutions being considered are chronically ignored by the OP and many right-wingers) If one puts the conservative thinking cap they use nowadays, one would conclude that continuing with the current system that then the critics that want to keep the program are irresponsible because they want to continue with a program that becomes wasteful when fewer students use it now. Of course that is if they were consistent, in reality the issue is complicated, but this is also one issue where the simple solution conservatives are calling for (keep the program) is not the best one. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/85 "2021-06-21T16:53:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It probably has the best teachers, too. No, I doubt many of them even have a Masters. It has _good_ teachers, though. So do lots of average schools. > [@](#): > > That school should be shut down and your kids moved back into an average public school and placed in an average class. That’s the only thing that would be fair to everyone. It’s amusing watching this caricature of what I’m actually promoting. When the average school runs the curriculum I favour, then I’d have no problem with my kids attending an average school. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/86 "2021-06-21T17:15:23Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > How did your kids get into that independent school? We fall into its catchment area, and we passed the application process. > [@](#): > > Can any kids go to it? Ones who live in the catchment area and who pass the application, yes. Note that that includes special educational needs kids, who are mostly in class with the other kids. > [@](#): > > Or do you have to pay more? No more than the good government schools in the same catchment, no. And there is financial aid for those who can’t afford the full fee. > [@](#): > > Is there an application process? Yes, quite a comprehensive one. > [@](#): > > Or perhaps you need to have the skills to work the system, which minorities and immigrants don’t have. Yes, you have to have some skills. But minorities and immigrants seem to have them just fine. How do I know this? Because the school is - OK, this is tricky, because “minority” doesn’t have the meaning here you’re trying to convey. Let’s just say the school is - far from mostly-White, with a sizeable immigrant cohort as well, and leave it at that. It’s mostly historically-disadvantaged groups who make up the student mixture. In the USA or Canada, they would be “minorities”. Here, they’re not. Note that that includes _my_ non-White kids. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Either way, your privilege is showing I’m well aware of the privileges I enjoy. I have no problem with _properly appreciated_ privilege. Which is why I pay for my and my kids’ privilege by working for the betterment of _under_privileged kids, including (but not limited to) actively advocating for changes to our national education system, paying actual money towards educating some of them, and, last and least, speaking out about shit on the internet. It’s _elitism_ I have a problem with. The language of “better than” or, as dickhead **Zoster** put it in another thread, “slow-witted” vs “best and brightest” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/87 "2021-06-21T17:16:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, an independent school is not the same thing as a private school. It is a school that has a different curriculum to the national one. Sounds a lot like the charter schools that US Republicans love. How do kids get into this school? Are there many low SES kids there? Many with neglectful parents or special needs, or children of immigrants? As several people have observed, selecting for kids of involved parents with high SES gives a rather similar population to honours classes anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/88 "2021-06-21T17:17:38Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Ya know the “_” doesn’t hide the word you’re using. > I mean, use the word or don’t, but that “_” shit is lame. Lame **and** offensive. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/89 "2021-06-21T17:19:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s _elitism_ I have a problem with. The language of “better than” or, as dickhead **Zoster** put it in another thread, “slow-witted” vs “best and brightest” Some people are smarter than other people. When we are limiting this assessment to something specific and measurable such as ability at advanced high school mathematics, the effect is even more pronounced. How societies and school systems account for this spread of abilities is a legitimate area of opinion; that it exists is a simple fact. It’s not _elitism_ you are at war with, it’s _reality_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/90 "2021-06-21T17:20:22Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Sounds a lot like the charter schools that US Republicans love. How do kids get into this school? Are there many low SES kids there? Many with neglectful parents or special needs, or children of immigrants? It’s not a cleverly-disguised religious nutso training camp, so no, not like most US charter schools. More like the fraction of charters who are Montessori or Waldorf. I think I addressed all of the rest of that in my answer to Sam, other than “neglectful” parent. Neglectful parents don’t seek out better alternatives for their kids, so that would be a “not likely”. > [@DemonTree](#): > > As several people have observed, selecting for kids of involved parents with high SES gives a rather similar population to honours classes anyway. Like I said, the kids here come from a range of economic circumstances. They do skew higher economically, but that’s understandable given our school catchment. Still, some do come in from the townships. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/91 "2021-06-21T17:23:25Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > It’s not _elitism_ you are at war with, it’s _reality_ . Aah, so silly of me, I forgot Finland was an imaginary country. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/92 "2021-06-21T17:23:34Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > But I do think it’s fair claim that pulling out certain kids and grouping them with other kids that are “like them” (in theory based on ability, but often that’s just a proxy for background) can be harmful both to those students and the students “left behind”, and fails the test of giving all students equitable opportunities to learn. Is there any evidence of the benefits and harms of the various systems? Seems to me they could eliminate many of the harms by making movement between streams automatic if a student is doing well or badly, and making sure good teachers are not preferentially assigned to the honours classes. The fact they are instead eliminating the entire system is surely based on politics, not evidence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/93 "2021-06-21T17:42:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The fact they are instead eliminating the entire system is surely based on politics, not evidence. The evidence I found shows that the gifted program was servicing fewer students than before. That tells me that there are other reasons for ending the program, not just politics. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/94 "2021-06-21T17:44:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Like I said, the kids here come from a range of economic circumstances. They do skew higher economically, but that’s understandable given our school catchment. Still, some do come in from the townships. What ‘European’ model are you talking about anyway? AFAIK both France and Germany split kids between separate vocational and academic schools relatively young, which is much more divisive than simply having honours classes. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/95 "2021-06-21T17:52:12Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Is there any evidence of the benefits and harms of the various systems? Seems to me they could eliminate many of the harms by making movement between streams automatic if a student is doing well or badly, and making sure good teachers are not preferentially assigned to the honours classes. The fact they are instead eliminating the entire system is surely based on politics, not evidence. I’ll do you one better - in my state the solution to this problem is to eliminate all compulsory restrictions on who can enter the honors or AP classes. If you think you can handle it, you can sign up. I’m sure that if someone who struggled with Algebra 2 wants to take BC Calculus, the guidance counselor might try to talk them/their parents out of it, but if they insist they have to be allowed in. I’ll give you one guess whether the total lack of anyone being forced into the lower-tier track has done one drop of good in getting the anti-excellence zealots to back down on removing the AP and honors tracks. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/96 "2021-06-21T17:54:06Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Is there any evidence of the benefits and harms of the various systems? Sure, there is plenty of research. Unfortunately it’s somewhat dated, and there will always be ways to quibble with the conclusions. Here is one study that showed negligible overall gains from tracking, with smaller positive gains for the “high” group and larger negative results for the “low” group. It’s the abstract only since I don’t have access to the full paper. [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737014003205](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737014003205) Here is one from Britain that showed similar results - gains for the “high” group and losses for the “low” group. [Effects of Ability Grouping in British Secondary Schools on JSTOR](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2095371?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) A longer-term study from 2009 shows: > [@](#): > > Generally speaking, students in detracked groups performed slightly better academically than their equivalent-ability peers in tracked groups ( _d_ = 0.087, _k_ = 22, _N_ = 15,577, _p_ \< 0.0001), using a fixed effects model. A random effects model also indicated the overall positive effects of detracking ( _d_ = 0.202, _k_ = 22, _N_ = 15,577, _p_ \< 0.01). However, the effect sizes of individual studies are generally heterogeneous with _I_ 2(21) = 94.033. Using a random effects model, the study shows that average or high ability students in detracked groups performed no differently than their equivalent-ability peers in tracked groups with a 95% confidence interval of (−0.047, 0.388). For low-achieving students, both the fixed effects model [_d_ = 0.113, _k_ = 8, _p_ \< 0.0001, 95% CI (0.056, 0.169)] and random effects model [_d_ = 0.283, _k_ = 8, _p_ \< 0.005, 95% CI (0.087, 0.479)] revealed positive effects of detracking on student achievement for the 8 low-ability subgroups in 6 studies. The evidence with respect to the non-academic impact of detracking is mixed. Cite: [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1756-5391.2009.01032.x](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1756-5391.2009.01032.x) Similar results here: > **[ERIC - EJ822225 - Accountability, Rigor, and Detracking: Achievement Effects...](https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ822225)** > > Background: This longitudinal study examines the long-term effects on the achievement of students at a diverse suburban high school after all students were given accelerated mathematics in a detracked middle school as well as ninth-grade "high-track"... with the added emphasis on mandating high-rigor curriculum in the detracked classrooms. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/97 "2021-06-21T17:54:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Aah, so silly of me, I forgot Finland was an imaginary country. Shockingly, even in Finland, different students have different abilities at math: > Some 85% of students in Finland attained Level 2 or higher in mathematics > In Finland, some 11% of students scored at Level 5 or higher in mathematics > **[PISA2018\_CN\_FIN.pdf](https://www.oecd.org/pisa/publications/PISA2018_CN_FIN.pdf)** > > 1153.16 KB ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/98 "2021-06-21T17:58:41Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What ‘European’ model are you talking about anyway? Mostly the Finnish, as that is the one I have the most admiration for, and a tiny bit of experience of. > [@](#): > > AFAIK both France and Germany split kids between separate vocational and academic schools relatively young, which is much more divisive than simply having honours classes. I don’t see how, in principle, as long as the vocational and academic streams are equally funded. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/99 "2021-06-21T18:00:32Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Shockingly, even in Finland, different students have different abilities at math: And in comprehensive school, they _still_ attend the same classes as the other students. Shocking, I know. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2021, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533/100 "2021-06-21T18:02:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And in comprehensive school, they _still_ attend the same classes as the other students. Shocking, I know. The fact that the slow-witted and the best and the brightest are forced into the same classes does not preclude the _existence_ of these groups, which is what you were supposedly arguing against. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/equity-comes-to-schools-in-vancouver/944533.md?page=6)