# Eric Holder makes changes to federal civil forfeiture program **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 17, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105 "2015-01-17T22:50:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/1 "2015-01-17T22:50:21Z")
Definitely a step in the right direction. For those of you who don’t know what this, it’s basically a way for law enforcement agencies to seize your property if they suspect you of a crime. In recent years, it’s basically been turned into a legalized form of highway robbery. From the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/holder-ends-seized-asset-sharing-process-that-split-billions-with-local-state-police/2015/01/16/0e7ca058-99d4-11e4-bcfb-059ec7a93ddc_story.html): > [@](#): > > Since 2008, thousands of local and state police agencies have made more than 55,000 seizures of cash and property worth $3 billion under a civil asset forfeiture program at the Justice Department called Equitable Sharing. > > The program has enabled local and state police to make seizures and then have them “adopted” by federal agencies, which share in the proceeds. It allowed police departments and drug task forces to keep up to 80 percent of the proceeds of adopted seizures, with the rest going to federal agencies… > > The Post found that local and state police routinely pulled over drivers for minor traffic infractions, pressed them to agree to warrantless searches and seized large amounts of cash without evidence of wrongdoing. The law allows such seizures and forces the owners to prove their property was legally acquired in order to get it back. The Post did an interesting investigation of this last year. Here is the link: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/collection/stop-and-seize-2/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/collection/stop-and-seize-2/) Anyway, that even some Republicans are praising Holder for this shows how insidious the practice is. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/2 "2015-01-18T00:03:15Z")
It’s great that he’s done this, and it’s an important step in the right direction, [but it won’t fix everything](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/01/will_eric_holder_s_civil_forfeiture_announcement_change_anything.html), because plenty of states have their own laws on the books that allow police to keep the proceeds of their asset seizures. Holder’s decision gets the Feds out of the racket, but doesn’t stop the states from continuing to steal people’s shit. > [@](#): > > Holder’s decision to halt the Justice Department’s “equitable sharing” program will certainly put a dent in the civil forfeiture racket. But it won’t come close to eradicating the practice entirely, because the majority of America’s 50 states—42, to be exact—still have laws on the books providing huge incentives for police departments to keep doing it. > > According to Louis S. Rulli, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law School who has studied civil forfeiture closely, no fewer than 26 states allow police to keep 100 percent of the assets they seize. And Scott Bullock, a senior attorney at the Institute for Justice—the libertarian public interest law farm—says there are 16 others where police keep 50 percent or more. > > “The law has to be changed in the states too,” said Bullock. “This closes one window, but you’ve got to close all the windows.” > > According to Rulli, the window being closed is not all that big. “The Attorney General’s announcement is certainly very welcome news and an important step toward stemming civil forfeiture abuse, but it is going to have limited impact in states and localities because most seizures of cash, cars, and homes are conducted under the auspices of state law,” he wrote in an email. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/3 "2015-01-18T00:48:56Z")
I’m glad this is finally getting taken seriously enough for some action to be taken. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/4 "2015-01-18T00:59:16Z")
It’s worth noting that any attempts at reform on the state level will probably see some incredibly ferocious push-back from law enforcement. Some departments fill over 20 percent of their budget using the proceeds of [del]theft[/del] civil forfeiture. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/5 "2015-01-18T01:40:44Z")
If there had been laws like this in the 1770’s, it would have been one of the complaints listed in the Declaration of Independence. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/6 "2015-01-18T01:43:24Z")
Gotta say, many of us who have worked in government policy are appalled at how popular it has become among the political element (i.e. elected officials and their patronage appointees) to legislate/regulate that the proceeds of seizures, forfeits and fines should go wholly or in part to help finance the entity executing or levying them; and at how the judiciary has generally said “yup, that’s fine and dandy!” It’s a blatantly perverse incentive. [John Oliver talks about the practice.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks) ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/7 "2015-01-18T02:06:19Z")
The drug war killed the 4th amendment, and the war on terror ritually desecrated the corpse. We’re not getting back the 4th until the drug war is over. Civil asset forfeiture is the literal opposite of the founders’ intent, as well as the opposite of the actual text of the amendment. God, I’m embarrassed what this country is doing to itself. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/8 "2015-01-18T02:27:57Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Anyway, that even some Republicans are praising Holder for this shows how insidious the practice is. Stay Classy! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/9 "2015-01-18T02:31:02Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Stay Classy! > > :rolleyes: Any point you might have had is obscured by the fact that so many Repubs like the practice of civil asset forfeiture. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/10 "2015-01-18T02:32:48Z")
[aside] > [@get\_lives](#): > > The drug war killed the 4th amendment, and the war on terror ritually desecrated the corpse. I’m taking this quote and running with it. [/aside] ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/11 "2015-01-18T02:41:10Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Any point you might have had is obscured by the fact that so many Repubs like the practice of civil asset forfeiture. Namely… ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/12 "2015-01-18T02:41:41Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Stay Classy! > > :rolleyes: My point was that even Republicans, who are typically very pro-cop, found this practice distasteful enough to laud Holder, a guy they have very little love for. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/13 "2015-01-18T02:44:40Z")
> [@Mangosteen](#): > > Namely… If you make me google just to prove an obvious point…no, fuck that, dude. You do your own research. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/14 "2015-01-18T08:05:49Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Some departments fill over 20 percent of their budget using the proceeds of [del]theft[/del] civil forfeiture. Now, now. I don’t think it’s fair to call these practices “theft”. Police officers in this country carry guns, so I think it’s more accurate to call it “robbery”. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/15 "2015-01-18T16:18:00Z")
Yeah, States definitely need to follow Holder’s direction. A landscape-company owner guy that paid me to help him out on big installs (when I could, around 20-25ish years ago), had his truck/flatbed ‘car hauler’ trailer forfeited after being pulled over for a supposedly non-working brake light. He proved it worked when he had me verify in front of both LEO’s, but it made no difference. There was a locked box with close to ten thousand dollars in it to be used at the eqpt auction we were headed to, and it also had the ‘official admission’ paperwork for auction itself affixed to wad of cash - just in case something like what happened actaully did happen. Evidence contrary to LEO’s “might be a smuggler” was superflous; owner was not getting his stufff no matter what he had to show that there was ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ evidence of what cash was for! No indication of malfesance anywhere other than possession of cash and his being of dark-skin from years of sun exposure from job. Cash was preferred payment over having checks or exact-amount money orders; even said so on the auction’s ‘guidelines’ in bolded print! LEO’s said there was a chance it was all a ‘front’ for smuggling drugs, and they _had_ to take possession of all items present! It was hilarious when boss-man threw keys into a murky river as they were explaining why he was going to be losing his truck/stuff and the LEO’s were furious at that since they had to spend a chunk of Dept money to move truck from where he had pulled over and haul it a non-short distance for ‘storage’. LEO was told that there had not yet been a seizure of stuff, so his action was perfectly acceptable as a ‘fuck you both’ from owner. Owner was wise enough to know that LEO’s statements of “we are going to seize…” -v- “We have now seized…” meant he could toss keys without any legal issue, LOL. LEO knew they had screwed up in their process, and became severe assholes, so Supervisor(s) had to verify that no seizure had taken place, so not possible to fuck with owner’s eiddance of key(s) to eqpt on trailer and truck itself. LEO’s were also dicks to me since I had not brought wallet with money (for them to take as well) and I was giving them every needed bit of ID that law required. I laughed at them demanding MY Driver’s license because I was not driving in any manner - something Supervisors told LEO was lawful on my part. When he sued to get his money/possessions back, it ws disallowed by the known rubber-stamping/crooked judge immediately. Judge would not even allow the auction’s paperwork to be presented as it was irrelevant to case! Riiiight. It would have cost more in attorney costs than value of seized stuff, so owner just had to accept the crookedness of LEO’s actions. Utter bullshit since I knew the ‘employer’ was staunchly against any of his employees having _any_ illegal items aboard when using his truck(s)/eqpt as it would affect him seriously as well. I know of another VERY similar case (different place/time) that had exact outcome with similar circumstances, fwiw, but forget when/where it was. Anything LEO wants to seize seems to get rubber-stamped as ‘legal seizure’ despite whatever evidence otherwise produced is given, IME. Good for Holder, absolutely, and I hope States see the wisdom of what he just did. Not holding my breath, though, since many small LEO depts DEPEND on seizures to keep their fleets of non-needed stuff maintained or whatever. This was told to me by at least 6-7 different LEO’s of various Depts I played rugby with on weekends at that time, so that is my ‘cite’, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/16 "2015-01-18T17:12:13Z")
The New Yorker also did a piece about a year-and-a-half ago on an east Texas town that had become notorious for this sort of thing. > [@](#): > > By the time Boatright and Henderson spoke with Guillory, he was already acquainted with what he refers to as “the Tenaha operation.” Several months earlier, he’d received a call from a plump-cheeked twenty-seven-year-old man named James Morrow, who worked at a Tyson plant in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, slicing chicken strips for prepared foods. “He told me a pretty startling story,” Guillory recalls. In August, 2007, Tenaha police pulled Morrow over for “driving too close to the white line,” and took thirty-nine hundred dollars from him. Morrow told Guillory that he was on his way to get dental work done at a Houston mall. (The arresting officers said that his “stories of travel” were inconsistent, as was his account of how much money he had; they also said they detected the “odor of burned marijuana,” although no contraband was found in the car.) Morrow, who is black, was taken to jail, where he pleaded with authorities to call his bank to see proof of his recent cash withdrawal. They declined. The story is pretty long, but it’s a really interesting read: > **[Punishment Without Crime](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken)** > > Under civil forfeiture, Americans who haven’t been charged with wrongdoing can be stripped of their cash, cars, and even homes. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/17 "2015-01-18T20:56:44Z")
Like I already said, the drug war killed the 4th amendment, and the war on terror desecrated the corpse. We’re not getting the 4th amendment back until every drug is legalized. They all used to be legal, and society, mysteriously, didn’t collapse. Regulate and tax recreational use, identify the addicts early, and get them into treatment. It would be cheaper than what we have now, far less violent, and we’d get the 4th amendment back. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/18 "2015-01-18T21:22:47Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > We’re not getting the 4th amendment back until every drug is legalized. _Every_ drug? Heroin? DDT? Thalidomide? Laudanum? Morphine? Fen-Phen? > [@](#): > > It would be cheaper than what we have now, far less violent, and we’d get the 4th amendment back. We have the 4th amendment _now_. The existence of the 4th amendment hasn’t prevented any of the “desecrations” you seem to think are happening. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/19 "2015-01-18T21:54:15Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > Like I already said, the drug war killed the 4th amendment, and the war on terror desecrated the corpse. > > We’re not getting the 4th amendment back until every drug is legalized. They all used to be legal, and society, mysteriously, didn’t collapse. Regulate and tax recreational use, identify the addicts early, and get them into treatment. It would be cheaper than what we have now, far less violent, and we’d get the 4th amendment back. Things like crack cocaine are recent inventions and were never legal, right? We could legalize opium poppies and coca plants but these would inevitably be processed into new, more destructive forms. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105/20 "2015-01-18T23:50:18Z")
Maybe when genetically-engineered microbe strains allow people to make any drug they want in a mason jar, we’ll finally have to give up on drug laws. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eric-holder-makes-changes-to-federal-civil-forfeiture-program/710105.md?page=2)