# Erin Andrews is awarded 55 million by jury. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 8, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244 "2016-03-08T00:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/121 "2016-03-08T20:24:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Why should a person behind the desk in a hotel give a shit? He (or she) doesn’t have $55 million. > > Sure, if they screw up they will be fired, but that would happen if the reward was $50,000 or $50 Billion. > > In either case, it is unlikely to come out of their personal pocket, and they are likely to be fired. …there wasn’t a problem with the “person behind the desk.” The house phones displayed the room number of guest. This is unbelievably fucked up. Every single guest that stayed at this hotel was exposed to this identical security flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/122 "2016-03-08T20:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] \ [http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fallacy.asp<snip>](http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fallacy.asp<snip>); [/QUOTE] I sure do wish this article about the “broken window fallacy” would have included the date when Bastiat wrote this fallacy. He lived between 1800 and 1850 which I guess nails things down fairly well. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/123 "2016-03-08T20:31:48Z")
The lawsuit specifically was aimed at the single hotel only, not the chain. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/124 "2016-03-08T20:35:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …there wasn’t a problem with the “person behind the desk.” The house phones displayed the room number of guest. This is unbelievably fucked up. Every single guest that stayed at this hotel was exposed to this identical security flaw. Please note that I was responding to this: > [@](#): > > The number is so high because these are punitive damages as opposed to compensatory damages. They are trying to make an example out of this hotel so the next time some concierge or desk clerk is thinking about revealing which room a guest is staying in (particularly a high profile one), they will think twice knowing how serious the consequences could be. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/125 "2016-03-08T20:41:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this isn’t about “rich or famous” guests. This is about basic security that every single hotel should be offering to every single guest. > > You’ve already heard from several ex/current hotel employees in this thread. I’ve worked at 6 different hotels, from a very small hotel to 3 of the biggest in the country. > > Not revealing the room number of a guest is one of the basic things taught to every hotel employee (from General Managers to the cleaners) at every hotel I’ve worked at (from 1-5 Star standard), and is supposed to be part of the basic training at every major hotel chain in the world. We are trained on ways that people will try and “trick us” to get Hotel Room Numbers. > > This hotel fucked up. And it didn’t just fuck up over this incident. \*\*Every single guest \*\*that stayed at this hotel \*\*was exposed with exactly the same security flaw \*\*that hopefully they have fixed by now. And every other hotel in the country now have a 55 million dollar incentive to get things right. Sure, but it is the height of absurdity to rely on massive punitive damages in an individual lawsuit to correct such flaws. A more inefficient and unjust method of regulation would be hard to create from scratch. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/126 "2016-03-08T20:44:06Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > I sure do wish this article about the “broken window fallacy” would have included the date when Bastiat wrote this fallacy. He lived between 1800 and 1850 which I guess nails things down fairly well. Here you go: [http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html](http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html) Turns out it was written the year of his death! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/127 "2016-03-08T20:48:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Here you go: > > [http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html](http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html) > > Turns out it was written the year of his death! A timely death, indeed, as it benefited the mortician who now had money to spend on new stained glass windows for his home! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/128 "2016-03-08T20:48:57Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Very good post, Malthus. > > Liability insurance costs, often sold under monikers such as business, umbrella, E&O, malpractice or professional, are significant for many businesses and professionals. And I know that many people have such an anti-business sentiment that there is little recognition of the problem, let alone sympathy. And don’t fool yourself into thinking that these costs are not passed onto consumers. While market forces may dictate what a business can charge, increasing insurance and regulatory costs reduce competition, which allows prices to increase. People who have never owned or run a business have no idea about such things, but they are quick to point fingers at “big corporations” and “rich business owners” and label them as evil. …I’ve run one business before and I’m currently self-employed. I’ve worked at 6 different hotels and I’ve been in the hospitality and conference industry for 15 years. I have plenty of “idea” about such things. I’m not anti-business, I have full insurance, and I’m not “fooled” into what is and isn’t passed onto consumers. It is pretty clear you’ve formed the opinion that everyone who has or will disagree with you is an anti-business luddite. But you are wrong. $55 million from one judgement isn’t gonna make jack-shit difference to anything. In this industry its a drop in the bucket. Most hotels use yield management to optimize pricing and this won’t change anything at all. This hotel is the one that fucked up and this hotel is the one that has to pay up. There is no need to “guilt the jury” because they made a fair and reasoned decision. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/129 "2016-03-08T20:49:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > A timely death, indeed, as it benefited the mortician who now had money to spend on new stained glass windows for his home! 😃 Well, I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/130 "2016-03-08T20:52:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sure, but it is the height of absurdity to rely on massive punitive damages in an individual lawsuit to correct such flaws. A more inefficient and unjust method of regulation would be hard to create from scratch. …define “height of absurdity.” This isn’t a form of regulation. Its a punishment, and I don’t see what was unjust about it at all. This hotel has been fucking up something very basic for probably a very long time, and it was only bought to everyones attention when this fuck up was exploited by a fuck up. And as bad as this incident was, it could have been a hell of a lot worse. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/131 "2016-03-08T20:52:59Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I think too much liability was put onto the hotel. Asking to be put next to someone else is a pretty common occurrence. Anytime a group of people are meeting at a hotel, it’s probably pretty common to want to be near each other. You might ask “Can you put me next to my dad?” or something like that. Handling that at the checkin desk is a convenience that I hope doesn’t go away. Two people standing next to each other at the front desk asking for adjoining rooms while checking in won’t be affected by this case in any way. The difference is clear and obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/132 "2016-03-08T20:53:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sure, but it is the height of absurdity to rely on massive punitive damages in an individual lawsuit to correct such flaws. A more inefficient and unjust method of regulation would be hard to create from scratch. It’s the worst possible system, with the exception of all others. > [@](#): > > Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.… Massive punitive damages get the attention of risk managers and other health and safety officials. The power of a jury, as opposed to legislaturers or regulators is obvious, they can’t be corrupted. Most cases resolve before trial, of the cases that go to trial,[one study](http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pdasc05.pdf) found that only 5% included awards of puntive damages. The median punitive award was around $68,000 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/133 "2016-03-08T21:02:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Why should a person behind the desk in a hotel give a shit? He (or she) doesn’t have $55 million. > > Sure, if they screw up they will be fired, but that would happen if the reward was $50,000 or $50 Billion. > > In either case, it is unlikely to come out of their personal pocket, and they are likely to be fired. It’s not about the person behind the desk. It is about the hotel making sure that the appropriate policies and procedures are put in place to correct this in the future. So for example, if a hotel is mulling over whether a more secure phone system is “too expensive”, they can now factor a potential $55 million settlement into those calculations. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/134 "2016-03-08T21:09:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …define “height of absurdity.” This isn’t a form of regulation. Its a punishment, and I don’t see what was unjust about it at all. This hotel has been fucking up something very basic for probably a very long time, and it was only bought to everyones attention when this fuck up was exploited by a fuck up. And as bad as this incident was, it could have been a hell of a lot worse. The usual reasoned explanation for this (IMO absurd) system is the one you yourself have previously advanced - that it is supposed to modify the first person’s behavior (specific deterrence) and modify the behavior of everyone similarly situated (general deterrence). In many cases, and indeed in most, that’s typically the job of regulatory bodies - they are supposed to educate, inspect, and yes, on occasion discipline those who willfully contravene regulations and/or codes of industry practice. The difference in the case of litigation is that the courts are artificially gluing at least three different concepts together: 1- Restitution to the actual victim in a specific instance. No need to belabor the point, but it ought to be obvious to any thinking person that $55 million is an absurd amount to pay in actual damages for invasion of privacy in this case. 2- Punishment for behavior that is truly beyond the pale, and cannot be allowed in descent society. There is no doubt that the individual perp ought to be so punished - he’s a creep of the first order - but what the hotel has done strikes me as garden-variety negligence. There was no malice, high-handedness, or any of the other terms that are usually found when describing this purpose of punitive damages. 3- Sum sufficient to modify behavior, as noted above (specific or general). This is the only category that “fits”. Problem is that there is absolutely no logic or justice in marrying these three purposes together; and it is highly inefficient. It makes about as much sense as gluing a horse to an eagle. 😃 Think of it this way. Assume it makes perfect sense to take a large sum of money from a hotel to modify its behavior. Why does it make any sense to hand that money over to the person harmed in this specific incident, over and above the amount actually needed to compensate her for her actual damages? As you yourself have said, the “wrong” was done to hundreds, perhaps thousands of people. Why does she get the money? It would be better, IMO, to regulate such problems by regulation (education, inspection, etc.) and, if massive fines are felt necessary, have them go towards actual regulation - not to lucky plaintiffs who hit the jury jackpot. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/135 "2016-03-08T21:14:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s not about the person behind the desk. It is about the hotel making sure that the appropriate policies and procedures are put in place to correct this in the future. So for example, if a hotel is mulling over whether a more secure phone system is “too expensive”, they can now factor a potential $55 million settlement into those calculations. You were the one who brought up the person behind the desk. 😕 Nevertheless, let’s explore your notion. Is it your contention that the best means of determining the relative value of safety systems is leaving it up to what is likely to attract massive punitive awards? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/136 "2016-03-08T21:17:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Think of it this way. Assume it makes perfect sense to take a large sum of money from a hotel to modify its behavior. Why does it make any sense to hand that money over to the person harmed in this specific incident, over and above the amount actually needed to compensate her for her actual damages? As you yourself have said, the “wrong” was done to hundreds, perhaps thousands of people. Why does she get the money? in Alaska, half of all punitive damage awards go to the state treasury. So that’s another way of doing it, if you prefer. > [@](#): > > There was no malice, high-handedness, or any of the other terms that are usually found when describing this purpose of punitive damages. If that was true, the Judge would not have allowed the question to go to the jury. Punitive damages almost always require something like “malice” or a “reckless disregard for the safety of others.” They are often thrown out by judges before (or sometimes after) trial, and quite often not awarded by a jury even when allowed. It is routine for the defendants to file a motion for partial summary judgment on the basis that “if we did anything wrong it was only negligent and would not allow an award of punitive damges.” I don’t know the facts of this particular case very well, but I would be surprised if they didn’t introduce evidence of more than mere negligence on the hotel’s part. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/137 "2016-03-08T21:20:00Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > It’s the worst possible system, with the exception of all others. Wait, are we talking about the peculiar system of tort law you have, or democracy? 😕 Are you seriously conflating the two? No, it is not “worse than any other system” - look at some other systems. I may have mentioned Canada’s. > [@](#): > > Massive punitive damages get the attention of risk managers and other health and safety officials. The power of a jury, as opposed to legislaturers or regulators is obvious, they can’t be corrupted. Are you seriously contending that regulatory corruption is a major factor? > [@](#): > > Most cases resolve before trial, of the cases that go to trial,[one study](http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pdasc05.pdf) found that only 5% included awards of puntive damages. The median punitive award was around $68,000 Most cases resolve before trial, as I _may_ have already mentioned - that’s a score for my side, not yours. Because each and every time someone settles, they do a risk calculation - in which, the risk of losing a jury jackpot will, obviously, be a prime motivator. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/138 "2016-03-08T21:20:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’ve run one business before and I’m currently self-employed. I’ve worked at 6 different hotels and I’ve been in the hospitality and conference industry for 15 years. > > I have plenty of “idea” about such things. I’m not anti-business, I have full insurance, and I’m not “fooled” into what is and isn’t passed onto consumers. > > It is pretty clear you’ve formed the opinion that everyone who has or will disagree with you is an anti-business luddite. But you are wrong. > > $55 million from one judgement isn’t gonna make jack-shit difference to anything. In this industry its a drop in the bucket. Most hotels use yield management to optimize pricing and this won’t change anything at all. This hotel is the one that fucked up and this hotel is the one that has to pay up. There is no need to “guilt the jury” because they made a fair and reasoned decision. Well, I’m pretty sure this suit has reduced the pool of willing hotel owners by at least one company, and is probably putting a scare into many more. And I bet liability insurance rates will rise, as well, reducing the net income of most hotels. Sure, it’s a drop in the bucket of the entire industry, but it’s likely devastating to this one owner. Perhaps it’s deserved, as you imply, since this hotel fucked up. But there are ripple effects. And it seems you have made your mind up that the jury made a “fair and reasoned decision”. I disagree, and see no possible reason the award was this high. That’s why there is a discussion/debate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/139 "2016-03-08T21:22:37Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > in Alaska, half of all punitive damage awards go to the state treasury. So that’s another way of doing it, if you prefer. > > If that was true, the Judge would not have allowed the question to go to the jury. Punitive damages almost always require something like “malice” or a “reckless disregard for the safety of others.” They are often thrown out by judges before (or sometimes after) trial, and quite often not awarded by a jury even when allowed. It is routine for the defendants to file a motion for partial summary judgment on the basis that “if we did anything wrong it was only negligent and would not allow an award of punitive damges.” > > I don’t know the facts of this particular case very well, but I would be surprised if they didn’t introduce evidence of more than mere negligence on the hotel’s part. I haven’t read the case either, but nothing in the commentary claimed the hotel acted maliciously - only stupidly. Maybe that is part of the “magic” of being found jointly and severally liable with an admitted pervert stalker. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244/140 "2016-03-08T21:27:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Meh. You’d probably be sniveling if she got just one million. And I could (hypothetically) decide that this insult was massively traumatizing and demand significant compensation and nobody has the right to suggest otherwise, apparently. For what it’s worth, I’d shrug at a judgement of $1 million. Her legal fees would eat up a sizable chunk of that. I could imagine doubling or tripling that without a problem. $10 million has me raising an eyebrow and $55 million… etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/erin-andrews-is-awarded-55-million-by-jury/748244.md?page=8)