# Ernest Hemingway **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 13, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159 "2013-08-13T20:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/21 "2013-08-14T12:06:07Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I think that The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber is the best thing he wrote, and a great place to start. What I was coming in to post. Hemingway’s style is great for short stories, and short stories are a great place to start if you don’t want to invest a lot in getting to know an author. _Short Happy Life_ has stayed with me. It’s about a man and his wife on a safari, with a weather-beaten, worldly British guide, where the safari represents how the man feels he has approached life - where he has been manly vs. a coward. Things happen. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/22 "2013-08-14T12:18:14Z")
I’m going to mention an obscure one that I think is well worth reading, and which provides some real-life background to his famous safari-based short stories: The Green Hills of Africa. It’s non-fiction, the story of a month-long safari he went on with his wife Pauline in Tanzania. ---
**Author:** ![kiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7feea3/32.png) [@kiz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiz)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/23 "2013-08-14T12:49:55Z")
For Whom The Bell Tolls isn’t my favorite Hemingway work, so it’s baffling why people keep recommending it for a Hemingway newbie over, say, A Farewell To Arms …??? But yeah, a lot of good advice here, especially about his works being like an iceberg. You don’t quite realize it after the first read-through (take The Sun Also Rises as an example), but you get it during the second. I’ve always loved Hemingway’s shorter works, particularly the stories within his Kilimanjaro collection and the Nick Adams series. His prose packs a lot while using very few words. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/24 "2013-08-14T13:25:23Z")
I think my favorite novel of H’s was _A Farewell to Arms_, but _The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber_ is one of my favorite short stories of any author, ever. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/25 "2013-08-14T14:01:09Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I think my favorite novel of H’s was _A Farewell to Arms_, but _The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber_ is one of my favorite short stories of any author, ever. Have to agree, alongside _Winter Dreams_ by F. Scott Fitzgerald (it was written leading up to The Great Gatsby and was used for FSF to write through some ideas that ended up in TGG - his editer, Max Perkins, would gather up all the pre-work short stories and publish them right after the novel came out - in this case, Winter Dreams was included in All the Sad Young Men and published in 1926, the year after Gatsby came out - AtSYM is referred to as having “The Gatsby Cluster” of Fitzgerald’s stories. I used to have a first edition of that book - wonderful 1920’s dust jacket). fwiw, I saw a rare book dealer who was offering the _original manuscript_ of _Short Happy Life_ - I can recall who, but it was a top-shelf dealer who wasn’t Bauman’s; I think the asking price was ~$230,000 maybe 8-10 years ago. If only I could’ve found the spare change in my couch 😉_Short Happy Life_ was first published in a collection of all the collected short stories of Hemingway - the previously-published stories, with four new ones, include that and Snows of Kilimanjaro. That first edition I have held onto 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/26 "2013-08-14T14:37:38Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I think that The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber is the best thing he wrote, and a great place to start. I agree, except I would add, “and also to finish.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/27 "2013-08-14T15:13:12Z")
> [@slowlearner](#): > > By the time he gets to For Whom the Bell his prose is losing its focus because he pretended to be fluent in Spanish and his importing of spanish grammatical idioms into english is just stupid and makes it really hard for me not to rip old man and the sea in half and run screamin What?! I obscenity into the milk of thy SDMB post! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/28 "2013-08-14T17:23:13Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > I’m not sure I understand this. Is it a whoosh? No not a whoosh. I simply do not understand why someone mary sue-ing himself into his writings is so valued. See below. > [@slowlearner](#): > > H is for young men. The more experience you have the less you’ll find to like in his work. Sun Also, his 1st published, is his only good novel because it is the only one that is not written about himself. The characters in Sun are not likable, but that’s the point, they have had everything valuable burned out of them by the world wide cultural suicide that was the war. His 2nd, A Farewell To Arms, has some of the best prose in American writing but rowing across the lake to Switzerland with Catherine he leaves the best part of the story behind (but my mom’s favorite book). By the time he gets to For Whom the Bell his prose is losing its focus because he pretended to be fluent in Spanish and his importing of spanish grammatical idioms into english is just stupid and makes it really hard for me not to rip old man and the sea in half and run screaming naked…most of the short stories are good, some great, get a collection called The First 49. Then get a copy of Bukowski’s Women and wash that taste of them out of your mouth with a bottle of cheap wine… ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/29 "2013-08-14T17:43:59Z")
“The Fifth Column and the First Forty-Nine Stories” is the book I mentioned in a post upthread. First appearance of _Short Happy Life_, etc. The Fifth Column is IIRC Hem’s only play; not particularly well-regarded. As for Hemingway being “for young men” - I suspect what we’re dealing with here is “style as substance” evolving into “style over substance.” His terse, hard-boiled style was most exciting as he was finding his voice in it - or using short stories to work a specific piece of craft. But he became a parody of himself. He’s first-half 20th Century’s version of _The Matrix_ - a hard shift in the language used that, in a mainstream way, became a singularity - there was writing before and after Hemingway’s version of a hard-boiled style became popular. Sometimes he actually had something to say with it; sometimes his style sold more meaning than was actually there (see Matrix); and some stuff was phoned-in. Still worthy of reading and understanding in the course of literature. And, yeah, easy to see why “young men” would dig it, again comparing to Matrix… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/30 "2013-08-14T18:03:27Z")
The thing with Hemingway is you have to put him in context to really appreciate him. If you just read his stuff now, you’re probably going to wonder what the big deal is. He’ll seem like a fairly ordinary writer. But that’s because a lot of writers nowadays write the way Hemingway wrote so his style will seem common. But readers were impressed when they first encountered it ninety years ago. His characters will probably also seem dated. Hemingway wrote in a time when “men were men” - his characters will be unironically “manly”. They’ll do things like hunt and fight and drink and treat women like objects. They won’t do things like have feelings. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/31 "2013-08-14T18:09:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > His characters will probably also seem dated. Hemingway wrote in a time when “men were men” - his characters will be unironically “manly”. They’ll do things like hunt and fight and drink and treat women like objects. They won’t do things like have feelings. Yes, but the Earth will move. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/32 "2013-08-15T00:47:08Z")
> [@slowlearner](#): > > H is for young men. The more experience you have the less you’ll find to like in his work. Sun Also, his 1st published, is his only good novel because it is the only one that is not written about himself. The characters in Sun are not likable, but that’s the point, they have had everything valuable burned out of them by the world wide cultural suicide that was the war. His 2nd, A Farewell To Arms, has some of the best prose in American writing but rowing across the lake to Switzerland with Catherine he leaves the best part of the story behind (but my mom’s favorite book). By the time he gets to For Whom the Bell his prose is losing its focus because he pretended to be fluent in Spanish and his importing of spanish grammatical idioms into english is just stupid and makes it really hard for me not to rip old man and the sea in half and run screaming naked…most of the short stories are good, some great, get a collection called The First 49. Then get a copy of Bukowski’s Women and wash that taste of hem out of your mouth with a bottle of cheap wine… How would you describe _The Old Man and the Sea_ as being about Hemingway? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/33 "2013-08-15T03:50:54Z")
I would interpret OMATS as an expression of H’s inner conflicts. This mainly involves his depression as against his love of the sea which seemed to act as a restorative for him; and also his pride and optimism. My favorite theme in OMATS is the Manolin-Santiago relationship: something you don’t see often in his books. The disciple-teacher relationship I interpret to be H’s concept of immortality. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/34 "2013-08-15T12:08:58Z")
The way Hemingway wrote stories reminds me of the music of The Ramones. shit ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/35 "2013-08-15T12:31:20Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > The way Hemingway wrote stories reminds me of the music of The Ramones. shit Wow - thanks for that. And such a thoughtful exegesis, too. Anytime you want to discuss the critical importance of the Ramones - a band I absolutely love and would put in the same “huge, huge influence” category as Hemingway - please go ahead and start a thread. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/36 "2013-08-15T13:00:54Z")
Critical importance of the Ramones. Funny one. But on a serious note when it comes to the arts everything is opinion, facts don’t play a part. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/37 "2013-08-15T13:08:30Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Critical importance of the Ramones. Funny one. But on a serious note when it comes to the arts everything is opinion, facts don’t play a part. So, you’re saying that The Ramones don’t cast a huge shadow over the music that has come since then? Again, you are welcome to not like them - that’s an opinion - but are you challenging the _fact_ of their influence? Again, start a thread. In the case of this OP - folks can bop in and slam Hemingway - he offers plenty of ways to. But as a hugely celebrated writer in 20th Century Lit, his influence is unquestioned and therefore, if someone wants to learn more about that period, reading at least some of his work is essential. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/38 "2013-08-15T13:10:50Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Critical importance of the Ramones. Funny one. But on a serious note when it comes to the arts everything is opinion, facts don’t play a part. There are some music critics who think it’s perfectly serious. And there are lots of facts about art that are important to some people when discussing art. It is not all opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/39 "2013-08-15T13:59:04Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > There are some music critics who think it’s perfectly serious. And there are lots of facts about art that are important to some people when discussing art. It is not all opinion. Another problem with people. Why do critics even exist? They get paid to spout their opinions as if they matter. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159/40 "2013-08-15T14:01:54Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Another problem with people. Why do critics even exist? They get paid to spout their opinions as if they matter. Dude, The Ramones get played at NFL games. “Punk” as a genre has devolved from a vast array of musics, looks and styles to basically “what the Ramones did.” If you are focused just on the critics, you aren’t looking around. Again, same with Hemingway. His hard-boiled style permeated _everything_ and still has huge influence - heck, per my reference upthread, The Matrix smacks of Hem’s hard-boiled style. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ernest-hemingway/666159.md?page=3)