# Errors in the Torah and Septuagint - Fact or Fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851 "2006-08-15T17:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/41 "2006-08-15T20:22:10Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] If you have access to the History Channel, they have a good show on the history of the idea of hell that you might find interesting. When perusing through the TiVo this morning, I think I saw that they’re going to show it again soon. You’re assuming here that God wrote the scriptures, or dictated them to someone (or to several people) word for word. Some people do believe that, but some of us believe that the scriptures were inspired by people’s experience of God, but not literally written or dictated by God. I think of them as being like a student’s lecture notes from a class given by God. Anyone who has looked at a student’s lecture notes knows that they don’t necessarily get down what was said in class perfectly… But couldn’t there be later errors that canceled out earlier ones? Someone could make the reverse of an earlier translation error, and then the newer version would be more accurate. [/QUOTE] I think I’ve seen the History Channel show on hell, but they almost always approach God from a secular point of view, so it gets kind of hard to watch because they get certain points wrong (my being anal is the likely problem). What you say makes sense as a possibility. Nobody could prove otherwise. If Scripture is simply human in origin, then there’s really no other evidence that it isn’t based on Sumerian or Babylonian paganism. What sets Scripture apart is the “Divine”. God (YWHW) is the Creator of all existence and most gods don’t make that claim (some do). I’m not able to say Scripture is the Word of God, only that my experience combined with Scripture’s assertion indicates it is to me. I’m more concerned about what televangelist’s are spouting on cable TV and what the world believes about what Scripture actually says. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/42 "2006-08-15T20:23:14Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] I’m rather certain that any Jew who labels himself Orthodox in any form does believe that the Torah was dictated letter-for-letter from G-d to Moses. I can’t say absolutely…there might be some more liberal congregations that take a less fundamentalist view and still call themselves some form of Orthodox. But I’d wager that there are very, very few, if any. [/QUOTE] That must have really sucked for Moses when God dictated the parts about Moses dying and being buried before ever getting to the holy land. Imagine having to write about your own future death and burial! I wonder if God capped Moses in the back of the head when he was done writing about it. ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/43 "2006-08-15T20:24:15Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] YHWH can exist and still not be the author of the Bible. The hypothetical existence of YHWH, in itself, has no necessary relevance to the truth or falsity of anything the Bible says about him. The imperfection of the Bible proves absolutely nothing about God. [/QUOTE] Technically you’re right. Logically though, the implication is there. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/44 "2006-08-15T20:29:06Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] If the Torah and Septuagint writings are not the Word of YWHW, there’s no other evidence to suggest that He exists. [/QUOTE] It’s YHVH or YHWH, not YWHW. Other people find lots of evidence of the existence of God outside of the scriptures. [Abdus Salam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam), [Albert Einstein](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Religious_views), [Isaac Newton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton#Religious_views), [Johannes Kepler](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler#Mysticism), and many other scientists find evidence of the existence of God in the workings of the universe or the existence of natural laws. Other religious thinkers find evidence of the existence of God in various things besides Scriptures (The Intelligent Design people find it in “irreducible complexity”- features in people, animals, etc that they say couldn’t have gotten there without an intelligent designer making them. That’s something they see as evidence of the existence of God that doesn’t come from Scriptures (they aren’t necessarily right or wrong, the point is that they see it as evidence of the existence of God, and it doesn’t come from Scriptures)). Maybe there’s no other evidence that you could believe, but there is what some people consider to be evidence of the existence of God outside of Scripture. > [@](#): > > I’m more concerned about what televangelist’s are spouting on cable TV Now, that I can’t watch without :rolleyes: I’m afraid if I watched too much of it, they might roll out of my head. ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/45 "2006-08-15T20:43:12Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] It’s YHVH or YHWH, not YWHW. I’m trying to work and still keep up with the posts, but that’s pretty bad. I didn’t even take the time to get His name right. Sometimes I wonder if He’d rather I didn’t tell people I know Him. Maybe I don’t… Other people find lots of evidence of the existence of God outside of the scriptures. [Abdus Salam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam), [Albert Einstein](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Religious_views), [Isaac Newton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton#Religious_views), [Johannes Kepler](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler#Mysticism), and many other scientists find evidence of the existence of God in the workings of the universe or the existence of natural laws. Other religious thinkers find evidence of the existence of God in various things besides Scriptures (The Intelligent Design people find it in “irreducible complexity”- features in people, animals, etc that they say couldn’t have gotten there without an intelligent designer making them. That’s something they see as evidence of the existence of God that doesn’t come from Scriptures (they aren’t necessarily right or wrong, the point is that they see it as evidence of the existence of God, and it doesn’t come from Scriptures)). Maybe there’s no other evidence that you could believe, but there is what some people consider to be evidence of the existence of God outside of Scripture. Yes, there is wonder in the universe. But science does such a good job at explaining it, it takes the mystery out. Humans are somewhat poetic in nature by varying degree and it could be considered natural to be in awe of something other than ourselves. 🙂 Now, that I can’t watch without :rolleyes: I’m afraid if I watched too much of it, they might roll out of my head. [/QUOTE] Smarmy comes to mind… ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/46 "2006-08-15T20:46:02Z")
Apos: > [@](#): > > That must have really sucked for Moses when God dictated the parts about Moses dying and being buried before ever getting to the holy land. Imagine having to write about your own future death and burial! Sure did. The Talmud says he wrote those last verse in tears. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/47 "2006-08-15T20:50:59Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] I always have to chuckle when I hear (or read) the statement: “As with so many other issues of contradictions within the Bible”. This one is by Cecil/Dex. My first thought is usually “Well, I haven’t lost one yet and I ain’t gonna start now…” [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=sfworker] If you can find a flaw in His Book \, I would be really interested in a chance to challenge it. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=sfworker] … _Where are the errors in the original Hebrew and Greek texts?_ [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MEBuckner] Yes. For example, the 26th chapter of the book of Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city of Tyre, in what is now Lebanon, and that the city “would never be rebuilt”. And yet, there’s Tyre, right there on the evening news. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke give completely different genealogies for Jesus (or more accurately, for Jesus’ stepfather, Joseph). [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=tomndebb] … Among the various points raised by those who perceive errors in the texts are the apparent lack of historicity of the purported census of the “whole (Roman) world” in Luke, the discrepancies in the genealogies of Jesus (that not only disagree with each other, but do not clearly match the lists in genesis or chronicles), the errors in the names and chronologies of Chaldean and Persian kings and empires, the lack of evidence for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40 year sojourn in the desert, the lack of a viable city on the site of Jericho at the time that the invading Hebrews were supposed to have destoryed it. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MEBuckner] Where do you say that modern translations (such as the NIV, or for that matter older translations like the King James) differ from the Hebrew text of Ezekiel 26? Does the Hebrew text of Ezekiel 26 not indicate that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre? What would be a correct translation of the Greek texts of the genealogies in Matthew and Luke, that would avoid the obvious contradictions between those two passages? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] You’ve already been offered numerous examples of factual errors and contradictions which exist in the original languages of the extant manuscripts. Do you have any explanations for them? [/QUOTE] **sfworker** , are you planning on getting back to your original question? ---
**Author:** ![baronsabato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@baronsabato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baronsabato)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/48 "2006-08-15T20:51:02Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] You couldn’t be more wrong. That’s why I asked you to interpret the concept of hell. You didn’t respond to the hell question so I don’t know what you believe, but as an example of errant teaching - every mainstream Christian church today promotes that the “acceptance” of Christ as your Savior is the only way to Heaven. It’s true to a degree, but there’s more to it than that. Scripture teaches that Christ is the Savior of all mankind, not just those who believe it. Directly related to the Book of Revelation is the meaning of “hell”. It’s the grave, not a fiery pit. When you look at Revelation literally you get “fiery pit”. Metaphorically it’s very different. God’s fire consumes works of the flesh and isn’t a literal fire. It’s a purifying fire. John 3:16 “…and those who believe will not perish” The Greek word used is “apollumi” (destroy) the root of apollumi is “apo” (separation) and the base word is “olethros” which can mean ruin, destroy, death, but it also means “for the destruction of the flesh” or fleshly/earthly works. I haven’t been in a church in 30 years that understands this. [/QUOTE] What churches have you been to? I was raised in a very fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, went through a brief Evangelical phase, and I’m now a mainline/liberal Protestant, and I was NEVER taught in ANY church I’ve been to that hell is a literal pit of fire. As a Southern Baptist and an Evangelical, I was told it was eternal separation from God, not a fiery pit- and this was coming from a Southern Baptist church that took the book of Revelation fairly literally (let’s just say that they used Jack Chick’s interpretation). As a mainline Protestant, well, most of the members of my current church don’t really believe in hell at all and have adopted Universalist stances rather than exclusivist ones. Granted, this is just one church out of the entire denomination (United Church of Christ), but there are plenty of other congregations both in and out of the denomination that feel the same way. Virtually none of the mainline denominations, whether they believe in hell or not, interprets Revelation literally, and I don’t know what that has to do with belief in hell. There are other passages in the Bible that can be interpreted as referring to hell, even a fiery hell, although I and many others may disagree with such interpretations. And as far as errors in the “original texts” go, it’s pretty much impossible to say simply because we don’t have the original texts anymore. Whatever we do have has gone through much recopying and rewriting. However, even if we go back to the oldest texts, we can find plenty of contradictions and scientific/historic inaccuracies. It’s completely possible to interpret the texts in a way that it doesn’t contradict itself, but you don’t need to go back to the oldest manuscripts to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/49 "2006-08-15T20:59:55Z")
Sfworker: Genesis 1 declares that plants (on the third day) and animals (on the fifth and sixth day) were created before humans (at the end of the sixth day), and that male and female humans were created at the same time. Genesis 2 declares that God made man (when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up), then God made plants and animals, then made the first woman. This is obviously a contradiction. Either God created plants before he created humans, or he created humans before he created plants. Is it your contention that the original bible contained no such contradiction? That if we were to unearth the original Torah dictated by YHWH to Moses, we would find that in that version, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 contained no chronological contradictions? ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/50 "2006-08-15T21:04:09Z")
Sorry, forgot to add the classic… [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] … Also, there are claims in the Bible which logically can’t be true, regardless of the existence of God. For instance, according to 1 Kings 7:23, the value of pi is 3. Obviously, even the existence of God can’t make pi=3. [/QUOTE] Please. I am genuinely interested in reading your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/51 "2006-08-15T21:22:04Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] Technically you’re right. Logically though, the implication is there. [/QUOTE] This what you said in the other thread – > [@](#): > > Like I said - I’m not going to say anything I can’t prove… You also said this– > [@](#): > > This board is supposed to be dedicated to fighting ignorance, but then you get people who use words like “probably”. Something is either true or false. There’s no in-between when it comes to ignorance. If you can’t back it up it’s conjecture and doesn’t belong here. Right? How do you reconcile these statements with the assertion that a thing can be technically correct, but have different logical implications? If something is either true or false, how can it be correct in one sense but not in another? Why do you not respond to at least one of the questions concerning necessary contradictions in a work that you assert to be flawless? Why do you continue to reference the ‘original’ text, when an poster who can read said text ( **Diogenes the Cynic** ) disputes your statements, and you offer no such credentials in reply? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/52 "2006-08-15T21:32:32Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] An example of what I’m getting at would be the concept of hell. Todays church teaches that it’s an eternal pit of fiery horror and that’s not what Scripture says. Because that’s so contrary to what most Christians believe today, people generally think I’m off my nut for suggesting it’s an incorrect belief. Hell is simply “the grave”. Nothing more, nothing less. Another would be that the churches today generally teach that if you don’t “accept” Christ you’ll “burn” in hell for eternity. Scripture doesn’t “actually” teach that either. [/QUOTE] Since you keep saying “today’s church,” could you please point out the exact doctrinal differences among the following denominations? Please be specific and discuss them individually. Thank you. (I have to leave many out to fit the space, but please don’t limit yourself.) Albanian Catholic Church Armenian Catholic Church Belarusian Catholic Church Bulgarian Catholic Church Byzantine Catholic Church Coptic Catholic Church Croatian Greek Catholic Church Ethiopian Catholic Church Georgian Catholic Church Greek Catholic Church Hungarian Catholic Church Italo-Albanian Catholic Church Latin Church Maronite Catholic Church Melkite Catholic Church Romanian Catholic Church Russian Catholic Church Ruthenian Catholic Church Slovak Catholic Church Syrian Catholic Church Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church American Catholic Church in the United States Ancient Apostolic Communion The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Arian Catholic) Catholic Apostolic National Church of Brazil Catholic Apostolic National Church (U.S.) Catholic Apostolic Church Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA) Celtic Catholic Church Charismatic Episcopal Church Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association Free Catholic Church Liberal Catholic Church Mariavite Church Old Catholic Church Palmarian Catholic Church Latin Episcopal Church of Brazil Philippine Independent Church Polish National Catholic Church Sedevacantism true Catholic Church Orthodox Church of Constantinople: the Ecumenical Patriarchate Orthodox Church of Mount Sinai Orthodox Church of Finland Orthodox Church of Estonia Orthodox Church of Alexandria Antiochian Orthodox Church Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America Western Rite Vicariate of the North American Archdiocese Orthodox Church of Jerusalem Russian Orthodox Church Chinese Orthodox Church Japanese Orthodox Church Ukrainian Orthodox Church Metropolia of Western Europe Belorussian Orthodox Church Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church Serbian Orthodox Church Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric Romanian Orthodox Church Bulgarian Orthodox Church Cypriot Orthodox Church Church of Greece Polish Orthodox Church Albanian Orthodox Church Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church Orthodox Church in America Orthodox Syrian Church in India Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA) Western Orthodox Church in America (WOCA) Greek Old Calendarists Macedonian Orthodox Church Russian Old Believers Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kiev Patriarchy) Armenian Apostolic Church Coptic Orthodox Church Ethiopian Orthodox Church Eritrean Orthodox Church Indian Orthodox Church (“Malankara Syrian”) Syrian Orthodox Church (“Jacobite Syrian”) Church in Wales Church of England Church of Ireland Church of Nigeria Church of Uganda Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East Episcopal Church in the United States of America Episcopal Church of Cuba Episcopal Church of the Sudan Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui Scottish Episcopal Church Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church African Orthodox Church African Anglican Orthodox Church Worldwide American Anglican Church Anglican Catholic Church Anglican Church in America Anglican Church International Communion Anglican Mission in America Anglican Orthodox Church Anglican Province of America Anglican Province of Christ the King Christian Episcopal Church Church of England (Continuing) Church of England in South Africa Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches Episcopal Missionary Church Free Church of England Free Protestant Episcopal Church Reformed Episcopal Church Southern Episcopal Church United Episcopal Church Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East (Assyrian Orthodox Church) Chaldean Syrian Church of the East (in India) American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC) Apostolic Lutheran Church of America Association of Free Lutheran Congregations Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America Church of the Lutheran Confession Concordia Lutheran Conference Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference All Saints Lutheran Church of Nigeria - Nigeria Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States The Lutheran Church of Cameroon - Cameroon Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference - Malawi Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference - Zambia Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden and Norway) - Sweden and Norway Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan) - Japan Ukrainian Lutheran Church - Ukraine Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States Evangelical Catholic Church Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran International Lutheran Council China Evangelical Lutheran Church Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia Lutheran Church - Canada Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod Laestadian Lutheran Church Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ - USA Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Lutheran Church of New Zealand Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA Lutheran World Federation Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark) National Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland) Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway) Church of Sweden Church of Iceland Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member) Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Lutheran Church in Great Britain Lutheran Costarican Church Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church Bible Presbyterian Church Church of Scotland Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches Cumberland Presbyterian Church Evangelical Presbyterian Church Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Australia First Presbyterian Church of Buffalo, New York Free Church of Scotland Free Church of Scotland Continuing Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster Korean Presbyterian Church in America Orthodox Presbyterian Church Presbyterian Church in America Presbyterian Church USA Presbyterian Reformed Church Presbyterian Reformed Church (Australia) Reformed Presbyterian Church of Australia Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America Reformed Presbytery in North America United Free Church of Scotland Westminster Presbyterian Church Canadian and American Reformed Churches Christian Reformed Church in North America Christian Reformed Churches of Australia Church of Lippe Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches Congregational Federation of Australia Dutch Reformed Church Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches Federation of Reformed Churches Fellowship of Congregational Churches (Australia) Free Reformed Churches of North America Heritage Reformed Congregations Huguenots (extinct as a modern and distinct group) Hungarian Reformed Church in America Orthodox Christian Reformed Church Protestant Reformed Churches in America Reformed Christian Church in Croatia Reformed Church in America Remonstrant Brotherhood United Church of Christ United Congregational Church of Southern Africa United Reformed Church United Reformed Churches in North America Anabaptists Amish Beachy Amish Nebraska Amish Old Order Amish Swartzendruber Amish Hutterites Bruderhof Communities Mennonites Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand Brethren in Christ Chortitzer Mennonite Conference Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka Holdeman Mennonites) Conservative Mennonite Conference Evangelical Mennonite Church Evangelical Mennonite Conference Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (formerly Evangelical Mennonite Brethren) Mennonite Brethren Churches Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference US Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches Mennonite Church Canada Mennonite Church in the Netherlands Mennonite Church USA Old Order Mennonites Swiss Mennonite Conference African Methodist - Southern Africa African Methodist Church - Zimbabwe African Methodist Episcopal Church African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church Bible Methodist Church British Methodist Episcopal Church Central Congo United Methodist Church Chinese Methodist Church Chinese Methodist Church - Australia Christian Methodist Episcopal Church - Dallas, TX Congregational Methodist Church Church of Christ - Hong Kong & Peoples Republic of China Church of North India Church of Pakistan Church of South India Church of the Nazarene - Kansas City, MO Evangelical Church Evangelical Church of the Dominican Republic Evangelical Church of Uruguay Evangelical Methodist Church Evangelical Methodist Church of Argentina Evangelical Methodist Church of Bolivia Evangelical Methodist Church of Costa Rica Evangelical Methodist Church of Panama Evangelical Methodist Church of Philippines Evangelical Methodist Church of Portugal Evangelical Methodist Community - Paraguay The Evangelical Church - Spain Evangelical United Church - Ecuador Finnish United Methodist Church - Finland The Free Methodist Church - North America Free Wesleyan Church - Tonga Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc. Independent Methodist Church Korean Methodist Church Methodist Church, Hong Kong Methodist Church in Ireland Methodist Church in Singapore Methodist Church of Bangladesh Methodist Church of Brazil Methodist Church of the Caribbean and Americas Methodist Church of Chile Methodist Church of Colombia Methodist Church of Cuba Methodist Church of Fiji and Rotuma Methodist Church of Ghana Methodist Church of Great Britain Methodist Church of Hong Kong & Peoples Republic of China Methodist Church of India Methodist Church of Indonesia Methodist Church of Italy Methodist Church of Kenya Methodist Church of Korea Methodist Church of Malaysia Methodist Church of Mexico Iglesia Metodista de México, Sitio Oficial Methodist Church of (Lower) Myanmar Methodist Church of (Upper)Myanmar Methodist Church of New Zealand Methodist Church of Nigeria Methodist Church of Peru Methodist Church of Puerto Rico Methodist Church of Republic of China Methodist Church of Samoa Methodist Church of Sierra Leone Methodist Church of Southern Africa Methodist Church of Sri Lanka Methodist Church of Togo Methodist Church of Zimbabwe North Katanga United Methodist Church - Kitwe Zambia Primitive Methodist Church Protestant Methodist Church - Benin Protestant Methodist Church - Côte d’Ivoire Salvation Army South Congo United Methodist Church Swedish United Methodist Church - Finland United Church - Zambia The United Church of Canada United Church of Christ of Philippines United Methodist Church United Protestant Church - Belgium Uniting Church of Australia The Wesleyan Church - Indianapolis, IN Wesleyan Reform Union West Africa African Methodist - Philadelphia PA West African Methodist Church - Sierra Leone Apostolic Christian Church Bible Fellowship Church Christian & Missionary Alliance Christian’s Missionary Church Church of Christ (Holiness) U.S.A. 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**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/53 "2006-08-15T21:52:40Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Yes. The Orthodox believe that God dictated the Torah to Moses. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Even Deuteronomy 34:7, which recounts Moses’ death? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/54 "2006-08-15T22:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] An example of what I’m getting at would be the concept of hell. Todays church teaches that it’s an eternal pit of fiery horror and that’s not what Scripture says. Because that’s so contrary to what most Christians believe today, people generally think I’m off my nut for suggesting it’s an incorrect belief. Hell is simply “the grave”. Nothing more, nothing less. [/QUOTE] Once at a garage sale many years ago, I saw a couple of vinyl records of sermons by Jack van Impe. One was titled, “Hell Is Not the Grave.” Stuck in my mind – apparently your interpretation comes up often enough that some evangelicals go to the trouble of refuting it. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/55 "2006-08-15T22:06:28Z")
BrainGlutton: > [@](#): > > Even Deuteronomy 34:7, which recounts Moses’ death? Difference of opinion in the Talmud. Some say that G-d did indeed dictate it to him to write in a prophetic manner; some say the last eight verses of Deuteronomy were written by Joshua. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/56 "2006-08-15T22:18:35Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] You didn’t respond to the hell question so I don’t know what you believe, but as an example of errant teaching - every mainstream Christian church today promotes that the “acceptance” of Christ as your Savior is the only way to Heaven. It’s true to a degree, but there’s more to it than that. [/QUOTE] You are entirely wrong on this point. The Catholic Church teaches that all humans are called to be saved and that an explicit acceptance of Jesus is not some sort of arbitrary condition to keep other people out. The Catechism explicitly discusses the salvation of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and others in sections [839 through 845](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#839). I did not respond to your question because it is not relevant. You made a specific claim regarding the book of Revelation and (all) Christian churches which is in error. Regardless of my personal beliefs, no mainstream Christian church other than a limited number of Evangelicals/Fundamentalists treat that work literally. You have now changed the point of discussion to one of (in)errancy, but that is simply a dodge away from your original claim. If you choose to believe that the bible (as written) contians no errors, you are welcome to that belief, but making claims against faiths not your own that are in error is a violation of the principle of the Straight Dope[sup]®[/sup]: we’re supposed to be fighting ignorance, not promoting it. Spreading false claims about what other people believe is an exercise in ignorance. You are free to challenge the beliefs of whichever religious group you choose. I do not get into fights over which beliefs are true. You are not free to make up claims about other people’s beliefs that are different than the beliefs those people actually hold. Your claim that (most? all?) churches read Revelation literally is demonstrably false. You may think that their beliefs are still in error, but it is a factual error to claim that they accept it literally (your word). Your claim that all mainstream Christian churches demand an acceptance of Jesus for salvation is demonstrably false (and I have provided the citation to demonstrate your error). You may have beliefs that differ from those churches and you may believe those churches to be in error, but it is a false statement to claim that they believe something when, by their words, they clearly believe something different. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/57 "2006-08-15T22:18:39Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] BrainGlutton: Difference of opinion in the Talmud. Some say that G-d did indeed dictate it to him to write in a prophetic manner; some say the last eight verses of Deuteronomy were written by Joshua. [/QUOTE] Or, to paraphrase the sea captain in “Black Adder, ‘Potato’,” when questioned about whether a crew was _de rigeur_ for such a long sea voyage, “Opinion is divided. All of the other capains say it is. I say it isn’t.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/58 "2006-08-15T22:34:35Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] No. The truth of Scripture proves God. It’s our only evidence of Him. “god” can exist, but if Scripture has “never” been perfect, then logically “God” is not perfect and the most he could be is “god”. YWHW is God (to me). He is not Allah or Buddha or Krishna. The Torah and Septuagint are Testaments of YWHW, not Allah, Buddha or Krishna. If the Torah and Septuagint writings are not the Word of YWHW, there’s no other evidence to suggest that He exists. [/QUOTE] 1. The Tetragrammaton goes YHVH (or YHWH), not YWHW. 2. Any Muslim would insist Yahweh and Allah are different names for the same being. (Allah is simply Arabic for “the God”; Arabic-speaking Christians use that name when they pray.) 3. It is possible that the true God of the universe is a being with absolutely no connection to the God described in the Bible (nor the Koran). 3a. Furthermore, it is possible that Yahweh/Allah exists, and really did talk to Abraham/Moses/Jesus/Mohammed – but he **still** is not the Supreme Being, he lied about that part; there is another above him. (I think the [Gnostics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostics) used to believe something of the kind.) 1. It is possible that the true God of the universe is an imperfect being. Not every definition of “God” requires perfection as an attribute. If he’s all-powerful and created the universe, doesn’t that make him God, even if he’s imperfect? 2. The Bible is **not** evidence of God’s existence, it merely asserts it. If “the truth of Scripture proves God,” what proves the truth of Scripture? 3. And no, there is no other evidence to suggest God exists. There are various [philosophical arguments](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguments_for_the_existence_of_God#Arguments_for_the_existence_of_God) for God’s existence, but all of them are basically flawed, and all apply to God only in the abstract – none can even purport to prove the existence of the Bible’s God, or the God of any particular religious tradition or revelation. (See 3, above.) E.g., you might (be foolish enough to) accept the Ontological Argument, that God is the Perfect Being by definition (see 4), therefore must exist because nonexistence would be an imperfection; but no way can you infer from that anything else about the truth of the Bible’s story, such as the original sin of Eve and Adam, the necessity of the death of Jesus as a human sacrifice to redeem that sin, etc. 4. Face it. You believe in God (and in the Scripture) because you **want** to. That’s called a leap of faith – believing something even though the evidence for it appears insufficiently conclusive even to the believer. All faith is a form of wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is not always wrong, but it is always suspect, and you don’t need to be any philosopher to see why. In any case, **it’s all you’ve got.** ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/59 "2006-08-15T22:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] My position is that the _translations_ of the original Hebrew and Greek texts are riddled with errors and heavily misinterpreted today to the point that the things people believe are pure fantasy. Going back to the original texts (as best I can) exposes the truth and it’s a far cry from what the churches are teaching. It was suggested that even the original texts are prone to errors, which would suggest that God is a myth, but so far I haven’t seen any evidence of these erros -\* in the original text\*. [/quote] Maybe someone can help me out with this one, but I’ve seen a passage in the Bible which appears (to me) to say that insects have four legs. Anyone know the Greek version of Leviticus 11:21-23? In the KJV, it goes > [@](#): > > 21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; > > 22 even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. > > 23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. This may not be what **sfworker** is going for, but to my eyes it appears to be a blatant factual error in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/60 "2006-08-15T22:40:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] :dubious: Even Deuteronomy 34:7, which recounts Moses’ death? [/QUOTE] . . . Read whole thread before posting . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851.md?page=4)