# Errors in the Torah and Septuagint - Fact or Fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851 "2006-08-15T17:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/81 "2006-08-16T01:25:16Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] The Bible is as difficult to disprove as it is to prove? More later? How disappointing. This thread and [its predecessor](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=384027&page=1&pp=50) are a challenge to show error and contradiction - an arena in which you claim to be [undefeated](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7679248&postcount=1). Can you be more persuasive in your argument or is the stalemate of “a possible solution” the best we can expect? [/QUOTE] Sorry, but I was just as disappointed. I haven’t heard anything new yet. I asked for errors and inaccuracies and you complied. As soon as I get the chance I’ll dig out the responses to the points made. I can usually just cut and paste. I was looking for something meatier though - loftier concepts. (Technically the statement “The Bible is full of errors” was the original challenge, although probably unintentional. Wouldn’t you expect the onus to be there?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/82 "2006-08-16T01:29:10Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] That’s actually quite funny. I identify with St. Augustine’s sense of overwhelming guilt. We part ways on the damnation of humanity doctrine though. [/QUOTE] It’s a limited conventional connection, though; the Augustinian paradigm was logarithmic to the curve of increasing identity vis-a-vis the trinitarian ideal. Pre-Galilean identity formation on the Hebraic historiography is better defined. Inconsistencies are simply the psychological “folding” of an erratic assimilation imposed on a societal autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/83 "2006-08-16T01:35:28Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] You have misunderestimated me, because I don’t understand your position. I’m not asking to trap you, I’m asking because I don’t understand your position. Is the bible innerrant, or not? You have stated that it is. Are translations of the Bible innerrant? You have stated that they are NOT, translations do have errors. But I don’t understand if you think the Hebrew Torah that sits in every Jewish synagoge is an innerrant original bible, or a corrupted translation. Do you believe the current Hebrew Torah is the original inerrant Bible, yes or no? [/QUOTE] Yes. I’ve said that: 1. I believe in God. 2. I believe God is perfect 3. The next logical conclusion is that His Word is perfect - but with a caveat… Logically a Sovereign, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God would not do anything imperfectly. If God exists and the Torah is His Inspired Word, is it logical to think it would be imperfect? I do believe that there are logical answers to the few examples presented here and I’ll attempt to resolve as best I can. Am I ever wrong? Almost always. If God doesn’t exist, then I’m certainly wrong, but my belief isn’t nearly as relevent to this thread as “what” Scripture actually says. That’s the crux. I can’t prove God, only what His Word says. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/84 "2006-08-16T01:36:21Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] OK, seriously, Zoroastrianism would be considered idolatry according to Judaism. For one thing, they believe the world is controlled by two entities (one good, one evil) who are independent of one another. In addition, they believe their dieties have some physical form or manifestation. Both these points are incompatible with the Jewish conception of G-d. [/QUOTE] Just for the record, there are some people who think that Zoroastrianism was at one point much more monotheistic than it is now, and I’ve seen some speculation in some Orthodox sources that that’s why Cyrus was so good to the Jews…because at that time, at least, Zoroastrinism was a monotheistic, Noachide religion (and fighting against the pagan beliefs of the older Persian religion). ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/85 "2006-08-16T01:38:15Z")
I declare **Bryan Ekers** the winner of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/86 "2006-08-16T01:39:44Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] I declare **Bryan Ekers** the winner of this thread. [/QUOTE] Seconded! ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/87 "2006-08-16T01:49:25Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Then we are agreed that yyou falsely posted something quite different when you saidRather, you have a vague grocery list of complaints about any number of Christian denominations that you will trot out at random because you are either unable or unwilling to stick to your own topic as delineated by the OP. And once you think you have an opening, you go on with further irrelevant meanderings such as Well, perhaps you are not dodging issues and are, instead, simply incapable of actually addressing an issue, even when you raise it. You asked whether any errors could be found in Scripture. You have been shown multiple errors in Scripture **that cannot be passed off as errors of translation–they exist in the original language versions**. Once we addressed those issues, you wandered away from your own Original Post question and began throwing odd bits of personal belief into the mix (including several errors of fact of your own, as I have demonstrated and you have acknowledged). Having read your last couple of posts, I suspect that this thread will shortly come to an impasse. You are going to insist that external evidence cannot be used to demonstrate errors in Scripture and, when contradictions are discovered within Scripture, you will fall back on the failure of “true understanding.” That is fine. You are welcome to witness for your beliefs in this Forum. However, no one else has a requirement to accept your unsupported (and insupportable) beliefs, just on your say so. Since you are pursuing a different question than the one you posted in the OP–a question I have no interest in hashing out–I will bow out of this discussion. I do hope that you and your many opponents come to recognize (not necessarily agree with) the separate and distant perspectives each brings to the thread and that it winds down gently and in courtesy, but I hope for alot of things that will never happen. [/QUOTE] “Then we are agreed that yyou falsely posted something quite different when you said” You’re going to have to explain your conclusion. Your logic isn’t obvious. “you have a vague grocery list of complaints about any number of Christian denominations that you will trot out at random because you are either unable or unwilling to stick to your own topic as delineated by the OP.” This statement must have some weak connection to our conversation, but sounds more like the opinion regarding someone you think you know. You don’t. Trust me. My “grocery list” is anything but vague and more importantly it’s not my list. “You are going to insist that external evidence cannot be used to demonstrate errors in Scripture and, when contradictions are discovered within Scripture, you will fall back on the failure of “true understanding.”” The wise and prophet that you are, your evaluation is decidedly off the mark. Like it or not. “Since you are pursuing a different question than the one you posted in the OP” Not very perceptive. It’s all the same thing. “I will bow out of this discussion.” Imagine my disappointment. I think your intellect is sufficient, but your heart needs some work…ta ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/88 "2006-08-16T01:56:15Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] Yes. I’ve said that: 1. I believe in God. 2. I believe God is perfect 3. The next logical conclusion is that His Word is perfect - but with a caveat… [/quote] Your third step includes an excluded middle. You are assuming that the Christian Bible is “His Word,” but you have established no grounds for doing so. You have to be more careful than that around here. Also I will give you a respectful fair warning that you should expect your cut and paste boilerplate defenses to the the errors will probably get eviscerated. I’m already quite familiar with all of them, as are a number of others around here. Don’t expect that you’re going to surprise us with anything. ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/89 "2006-08-16T02:11:08Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Since you keep saying “today’s church,” could you please point out the exact doctrinal differences among the following denominations? Please be specific and discuss them individually. Thank you. (I have to leave many out to fit the space, but please don’t limit yourself.) Albanian Catholic Church Armenian Catholic Church Belarusian Catholic Church Bulgarian Catholic Church Byzantine Catholic Church Coptic Catholic Church Croatian Greek Catholic Church Ethiopian Catholic Church Georgian Catholic Church Greek Catholic Church Hungarian Catholic Church Italo-Albanian Catholic Church Latin Church Maronite Catholic Church Melkite Catholic Church Romanian Catholic Church Russian Catholic Church Ruthenian Catholic Church Slovak Catholic Church Syrian Catholic Church Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church American Catholic Church in the United States Ancient Apostolic Communion The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Arian Catholic) Catholic Apostolic National Church of Brazil Catholic Apostolic National Church (U.S.) Catholic Apostolic Church Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA) Celtic Catholic Church Charismatic Episcopal Church Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association Free Catholic Church Liberal Catholic Church Mariavite Church Old Catholic Church Palmarian Catholic Church Latin Episcopal Church of Brazil Philippine Independent Church Polish National Catholic Church Sedevacantism true Catholic Church Orthodox Church of Constantinople: the Ecumenical Patriarchate Orthodox Church of Mount Sinai Orthodox Church of Finland Orthodox Church of Estonia Orthodox Church of Alexandria Antiochian Orthodox Church Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America Western Rite Vicariate of the North American Archdiocese Orthodox Church of Jerusalem Russian Orthodox Church Chinese Orthodox Church Japanese Orthodox Church Ukrainian Orthodox Church Metropolia of Western Europe Belorussian Orthodox Church Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church Serbian Orthodox Church Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric Romanian Orthodox Church Bulgarian Orthodox Church Cypriot Orthodox Church Church of Greece Polish Orthodox Church Albanian Orthodox Church Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church Orthodox Church in America Orthodox Syrian Church in India Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA) Western Orthodox Church in America (WOCA) Greek Old Calendarists Macedonian Orthodox Church Russian Old Believers Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kiev Patriarchy) Armenian Apostolic Church Coptic Orthodox Church Ethiopian Orthodox Church Eritrean Orthodox Church Indian Orthodox Church (“Malankara Syrian”) Syrian Orthodox Church (“Jacobite Syrian”) Church in Wales Church of England Church of Ireland Church of Nigeria Church of Uganda Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East Episcopal Church in the United States of America Episcopal Church of Cuba Episcopal Church of the Sudan Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui Scottish Episcopal Church Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church African Orthodox Church African Anglican Orthodox Church Worldwide American Anglican Church Anglican Catholic Church Anglican Church in America Anglican Church International Communion Anglican Mission in America Anglican Orthodox Church Anglican Province of America Anglican Province of Christ the King Christian Episcopal Church Church of England (Continuing) Church of England in South Africa Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches Episcopal Missionary Church Free Church of England Free Protestant Episcopal Church Reformed Episcopal Church Southern Episcopal Church United Episcopal Church Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East (Assyrian Orthodox Church) Chaldean Syrian Church of the East (in India) American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC) Apostolic Lutheran Church of America Association of Free Lutheran Congregations Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America Church of the Lutheran Confession Concordia Lutheran Conference Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference All Saints Lutheran Church of Nigeria - Nigeria Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States The Lutheran Church of Cameroon - Cameroon Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference - Malawi Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference - Zambia Lutheran Confessional Church (Sweden and Norway) - Sweden and Norway Lutheran Evangelical Christian Church (Japan) - Japan Ukrainian Lutheran Church - Ukraine Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - United States Evangelical Catholic Church Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran International Lutheran Council China Evangelical Lutheran Church Christian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bolivia Lutheran Church - Canada Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod Laestadian Lutheran Church Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ - USA Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Lutheran Church of New Zealand Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA Lutheran World Federation Bolivian Evangelical Lutheran Church Christian Lutheran Church of Honduras Church of Denmark (Evangelical Lutheran Church in Denmark) National Church of Iceland (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Iceland) Church of Norway (Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway) Church of Sweden Church of Iceland Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia Evangelical Church of the Lutheran Confession in Brazil Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (Associate member) Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Lutheran Church in Great Britain Lutheran Costarican Church Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church Bible Presbyterian Church Church of Scotland Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches Cumberland Presbyterian Church Evangelical Presbyterian Church Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Australia First Presbyterian Church of Buffalo, New York Free Church of Scotland Free Church of Scotland Continuing Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster Korean Presbyterian Church in America Orthodox Presbyterian Church Presbyterian Church in America Presbyterian Church USA Presbyterian Reformed Church Presbyterian Reformed Church (Australia) Reformed Presbyterian Church of Australia Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America Reformed Presbytery in North America United Free Church of Scotland Westminster Presbyterian Church Canadian and American Reformed Churches Christian Reformed Church in North America Christian Reformed Churches of Australia Church of Lippe Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches Congregational Federation of Australia Dutch Reformed Church Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches Federation of Reformed Churches Fellowship of Congregational Churches (Australia) Free Reformed Churches of North America Heritage Reformed Congregations Huguenots (extinct as a modern and distinct group) Hungarian Reformed Church in America Orthodox Christian Reformed Church Protestant Reformed Churches in America Reformed Christian Church in Croatia Reformed Church in America Remonstrant Brotherhood United Church of Christ United Congregational Church of Southern Africa United Reformed Church United Reformed Churches in North America Anabaptists Amish Beachy Amish Nebraska Amish Old Order Amish Swartzendruber Amish Hutterites Bruderhof Communities Mennonites Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand Brethren in Christ Chortitzer Mennonite Conference Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka Holdeman Mennonites) Conservative Mennonite Conference Evangelical Mennonite Church Evangelical Mennonite Conference Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference Fellowship of Evangelical Bible Churches (formerly Evangelical Mennonite Brethren) Mennonite Brethren Churches Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference US Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches Mennonite Church Canada Mennonite Church in the Netherlands Mennonite Church USA Old Order Mennonites Swiss Mennonite Conference African Methodist - Southern Africa African Methodist Church - Zimbabwe African Methodist Episcopal Church African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church Bible Methodist Church British Methodist Episcopal Church Central Congo United Methodist Church Chinese Methodist Church Chinese Methodist Church - Australia Christian Methodist Episcopal Church - Dallas, TX Congregational Methodist Church Church of Christ - Hong Kong & Peoples Republic of China Church of North India Church of Pakistan Church of South India Church of the Nazarene - Kansas City, MO Evangelical Church Evangelical Church of the Dominican Republic Evangelical Church of Uruguay Evangelical Methodist Church Evangelical Methodist Church of Argentina Evangelical Methodist Church of Bolivia Evangelical Methodist Church of Costa Rica Evangelical Methodist Church of Panama Evangelical Methodist Church of Philippines Evangelical Methodist Church of Portugal Evangelical Methodist Community - Paraguay The Evangelical Church - Spain Evangelical United Church - Ecuador Finnish United Methodist Church - Finland The Free Methodist Church - North America Free Wesleyan Church - Tonga Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc. Independent Methodist Church Korean Methodist Church Methodist Church, Hong Kong Methodist Church in Ireland Methodist Church in Singapore Methodist Church of Bangladesh Methodist Church of Brazil Methodist Church of the Caribbean and Americas Methodist Church of Chile Methodist Church of Colombia Methodist Church of Cuba Methodist Church of Fiji and Rotuma Methodist Church of Ghana Methodist Church of Great Britain Methodist Church of Hong Kong & Peoples Republic of China Methodist Church of India Methodist Church of Indonesia Methodist Church of Italy Methodist Church of Kenya Methodist Church of Korea Methodist Church of Malaysia Methodist Church of Mexico Iglesia Metodista de México, Sitio Oficial Methodist Church of (Lower) Myanmar Methodist Church of (Upper)Myanmar Methodist Church of New Zealand Methodist Church of Nigeria Methodist Church of Peru Methodist Church of Puerto Rico Methodist Church of Republic of China Methodist Church of Samoa Methodist Church of Sierra Leone Methodist Church of Southern Africa Methodist Church of Sri Lanka Methodist Church of Togo Methodist Church of Zimbabwe North Katanga United Methodist Church - Kitwe Zambia Primitive Methodist Church Protestant Methodist Church - Benin Protestant Methodist Church - Côte d’Ivoire Salvation Army South Congo United Methodist Church Swedish United Methodist Church - Finland United Church - Zambia The United Church of Canada United Church of Christ of Philippines United Methodist Church United Protestant Church - Belgium Uniting Church of Australia The Wesleyan Church - Indianapolis, IN Wesleyan Reform Union West Africa African Methodist - Philadelphia PA West African Methodist Church - Sierra Leone Apostolic Christian Church Bible Fellowship Church Christian & Missionary Alliance Christian’s Missionary Church Church of Christ (Holiness) U.S.A. Church of God (Anderson) Church of God (Guthrie, Oklahoma) Church of God (Holiness) Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner) Church of the Nazarene Evangelical Covenant Church Missionary Church United Christian Church Alliance of Baptists American Baptist Association American Baptist Churches USA Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland Association of Grace Baptist Churches Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America Association of Regular Baptist Churches Baptist Bible Fellowship International Baptist Conference of the Philippines Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec Baptist Convention of Western Cuba Baptist General Conference (formally Swedish Baptist General Conference) Baptist General Conference of Canada Baptist General Convention of Texas Baptist Missionary Association of America Baptist Union of Australia Baptist Union of Great Britain Baptist Union of New Zealand Baptist Union of Scotland Baptist Union of Western Canada Baptist World Alliance Bible Baptist Canadian Baptist Ministries Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists Central Baptist Association Central Canada Baptist Conference Christian Unity Baptist Association Colored Primitive Baptists Conservative Baptist Association Conservative Baptist Association of America Conservative Baptists Continental Baptist Churches Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches Cooperative Baptist Fellowship European Baptist Convention European Baptist Federation Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti Evangelical Free Baptist Church Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada Free Will Baptist Church Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America General Association of Baptists General Association of General Baptists General Association of Regular Baptist Churches General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc. General Six-Principle Baptists Ghana Baptist Convention Global Independent Baptist Fellowship Grace Baptist Assembly Independent Baptists Independent Baptist Church of America Independent Baptist Fellowship International Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association Landmark Baptist Church Liberty Baptist Fellowship Myanmar Baptist Convention National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A. New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches Nigerian Baptist Convention North American Baptist Conference Norwegian Baptist Union Old Baptist Union Old Regular Baptists Old Time Missionary Baptists Primitive Baptists Progressive Baptists Progressive National Baptist Convention Reformed Baptists Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of Regular Baptists Separate Baptists Separate Baptists in Christ Seventh Day Baptists Sierra Leone Baptist Convention Southeast Conservative Baptists Southern Baptist Convention Southern Baptists of Texas Sovereign Grace Baptists Strict Baptists Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists Union d’Églises baptistes françaises au Canada United American Free Will Baptist Church United American Free Will Baptist Conference United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces United Baptists United Free Will Baptist Unregistered Baptist Fellowship World Baptist Alliance World Baptist Fellowship Church of the United Brethren in Christ Plymouth Brethren Open Brethren Exclusive Brethren Indian Brethren Kerala Brethren River Brethren Brethren in Christ Church Old Order River Brethren United Zion Church Church of the Brethren Conservative Grace Brethren Churches, International Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches Old German Baptist Brethren Old Order German Baptist Brethren The Brethren Church (Ashland Brethren) Social Brethren Catholic Apostolic Church Restored Apostolic Mission Church New Apostolic Church United Apostolic Church Abundant Life Worship Centers Apostolic Assemblies of Christ Apostolic Church of Pentecost of Canada Apostolic Faith Church Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa Assemblies of God Assembly of Pentecostal Churches of Jesus Christ Bible-Pattern Church Fellowship Calvary Holiness Association Charismatic Episcopal Church Christ Apostolic Church Christian City Churches Christ Gospel Churches International Christian Church of North America Christian Congregation of Brazil Christian Outreach Centre Christian Revival Crusade Church of God of the Union Assembly Church of the Little Children of Jesus Christ Congregational Holiness Church CRC Churches International Destiny Church Elim Fellowship Elim Pentecostal Church Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas God is Love Pentecostal Church Holiness Baptist Association House of Prayer Christian Church Independent Assemblies of God, International International Church of the Foursquare Gospel International Pentecostal Church of Christ International Pentecostal Holiness Church Ministers Fellowship International New Life Churches New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc Open Bible Standard Churches (association of autonomous churches) Pentecostal Mission Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland Pentecostal Church of God Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches of North America Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith Pentecostal World Conference Redeemed Christian Church of God The Revival Fellowship The Church of God (Jerusalem Acres) The Church of God for All Nations The Fellowship (FGFCMI) United Gospel Tabernacles United Holy Church of America United Pentecostal Churches of Christ Zimbabwe Assemblies of God Africa (ZAOGA) Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus Apostolic Brethren Apostolic Church of the Faith in Jesus Christ Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ Church of Jesus Christ of Prophecy Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith House of Prayer Christian Church International Church of Jesus Christ Pentecostal Assemblies of the World Potter’s House Christian Fellowship United Pentecostal Church International Charismatic Episcopal Church Full Gospel New Frontiers Sovereign Grace Ministries Vineyard Movement Catholic Charismatic Renewal Calvary Chapel Church of Christ, Instrumental (Kelleyites) Christian City Church (“CCC” or “C3i”) City Harvest Church Eternal Grace Evangelical Covenant Church of America (“Swedish Evangelical Mission Covenant”) Evangelical Free Church of America (EFCA) Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches Grace Movement Churches Great Commission Association Greater Grace World Outreach Hope Church Singapore Indian Shakers Jesus Movement Metropolitan Community Churches New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International) Schwenkfelder Church [/QUOTE] I appreciate the effort it must have taken to type all of those in line by line, but before I take a week’s vacation to respond to your incredibly valuable post, I’d like to make sure that your experience with each individual denomination is sufficient to grasp the complexities of a succinct repsonse. If you could provide your personal perspective on each, it would help me to determine which specific approach would be most fitting for you’re experience level. I’ll wait… ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/90 "2006-08-16T02:13:52Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Can things be learned from the Bible? With the exception of a few rabid anti-religionists, I think the consensus is yes, even among the agnostics, atheists, and other non-Christian/non-Jew members. [/quote] I would add the caveat that, though wisdom can be found in the bible (I actually like the book of Ecclesiastes), that because there is so much anti-wisdom ,one must already know what wisdom looks like, else one might actually stone their children for being stubborn. Knowing what wisdom looks like already, sort of makes the bible superfluous. I would also add that a lot of other books offer considerably more wisdom, without the slightest appeal to the supernatural. Even philosophers of the time period, Plato and Aristotle for example, dwarf the bible with regards to both theoretical and practical insights. I personally don’t think there is hardly a twit of wisdom coming from Jesus. He comes off as no more than a self righteous, communistic, genocidal, hippie to me. > [@](#): > > But any such study calls for understanding the original text, the circumstances in which it was written, the context, the possible modifications made to it, the differentiation of then and there from here and now, the vocabulary and idioms used, etc. Much, if not all, of which is to varying degrees unknown. > [@](#): > > ( **Badchad** , your analysis of the above paragraphs _as a summary of what Dopers as a cultural subset hold valid as regards the Bible_ is welcomed. I’m trying to carefully avoid making my own personal assertions about it, instead addressing the OP question regarding the consensus opinion here; your critical analysis of my answer _in those terms_ is welcomed.) I think this type of answer is much improved from your norm. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/91 "2006-08-16T02:20:03Z")
[QUOTE=baronsabato] What churches have you been to? I was raised in a very fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, went through a brief Evangelical phase, and I’m now a mainline/liberal Protestant, and I was NEVER taught in ANY church I’ve been to that hell is a literal pit of fire. As a Southern Baptist and an Evangelical, I was told it was eternal separation from God, not a fiery pit- and this was coming from a Southern Baptist church that took the book of Revelation fairly literally (let’s just say that they used Jack Chick’s interpretation). As a mainline Protestant, well, most of the members of my current church don’t really believe in hell at all… [/QUOTE] **Baronsabato** , are you and your chuchmates so liberal in your interpretations of heaven? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/92 "2006-08-16T02:23:54Z")
Okay. Let’s try this. If the ants in my yard develop a rudimentary intelligence and begin to wonder about the world around them and some get together and create some books in different areas and times and at some point come together as a tribe and bring these books into one place and, with a little editing and rephrasing and reordering (as in the J,E,D and P documents) they develop a book they agree to call THe PentANTeuch. And in this book they address the Great One (me) that brings the rains and the floods (my sprinklers) and the taking of the unrighteous in a whirlwind (my mower) and the killer of the unworthy (Amdro). Many generations have passed (a couple of years to me) and their position is “These books are perfect because HE is perfect and if there are any flaws it must be due to translations or misunderstanding because HE is perfect.” Here are some possibilities. 1. I am perfect and the book they wrote is also perfect. 2. I am perfect but the book they wrote is flawed 3. I am flawed but amazingly enough, the book is dead-on. 4. I am flawed and the book they made up is flawed. 5. I do not exist and some ants have written a book that they have held dear for a long time (in ant years at least) and it is flawed because it is written by a bunch of stupid ants. I think that you believe number 1 but fail to see that there is not necessarily any connection between the two. I can exist outside of the speculative writings of a bunch of ants. Many Christians I have talked with lean more towards number 2 I’m going with number 5. ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/93 "2006-08-16T02:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Your third step includes an excluded middle. You are assuming that the Christian Bible is “His Word,” but you have established no grounds for doing so. You have to be more careful than that around here. Also I will give you a respectful fair warning that you should expect your cut and paste boilerplate defenses to the the errors will probably get eviscerated. I’m already quite familiar with all of them, as are a number of others around here. Don’t expect that you’re going to surprise us with anything. [/QUOTE] I appreciate the warning, but I’ve been down this road more times than I can count. When I said that my “list” is cut and paste, I meant that the responses are just as hard to refute because it’s ALL conjecture anyway. Not I nor anyone here has any real proof of anything, just varying degrees of predication based on a personality nuances. Except for you and a few others it seems like an exceedingly ornery bunch and while I’ve dueled with my share I suspect some are prone to dissension even in the face of legitimate logic. ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/94 "2006-08-16T02:36:40Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] Are there are errors in the Hebrew OT (Torah) and the Greek NT (Septuagint)? [/QUOTE] Have fun: > **[SAB Contradictions](https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)** I’ll leave it up to you to convert to Hebrew/Greek. ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/95 "2006-08-16T02:41:39Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Your third step includes an excluded middle. You are assuming that the Christian Bible is “His Word,” but you have established no grounds for doing so. You have to be more careful than that around here. Also I will give you a respectful fair warning that you should expect your cut and paste boilerplate defenses to the the errors will probably get eviscerated. I’m already quite familiar with all of them, as are a number of others around here. Don’t expect that you’re going to surprise us with anything. [/QUOTE] “You are assuming that the Christian Bible is “His Word,” but you have established no grounds for doing so” Well, I did say that my premise is that the Bible is the Word of God early on and that without that we have no common ground. I don’t debate for the sake of debate, but do so in seeking deeper truth. Because Scripture is welded to my brain pan and isn’t something I can easily shed. I like discussing Scripture, but don’t care much for arguing about it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/96 "2006-08-16T02:44:20Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] That must have really sucked for Moses when God dictated the parts about Moses dying and being buried before ever getting to the holy land. Imagine having to write about your own future death and burial! I wonder if God capped Moses in the back of the head when he was done writing about it. [/QUOTE] That assumes that God has the same sort of character as me–i.e., is an ass. And that’s far too depressing a thought. Even _I_ wouldn’t want to live in a world as designed by Skald the Rhymer. ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/97 "2006-08-16T02:46:40Z")
[QUOTE=badchad] Have fun: > **[SAB Contradictions](https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)** I’ll leave it up to you to convert to Hebrew/Greek. [/QUOTE] They already give responses. It’s an interesting link though, I’ll spend some time there. Thanks! (How do the dissenters handle that? Are there counter-arguments to the answers?) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/98 "2006-08-16T02:46:53Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Since you keep saying “today’s church,” could you please point out the exact doctrinal differences among the following denominations? Please be specific and discuss them individually. Thank you. (I have to leave many out to fit the space, but please don’t limit yourself.) Albanian Catholic Church Armenian Catholic Church Belarusian Catholic Church [most of long list snipped] Metropolitan Community Churches New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International) Schwenkfelder Church [/QUOTE] That was very, very cruel. And I mean that as a compliment. ---
**Author:** ![sfworker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@sfworker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfworker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/99 "2006-08-16T02:48:56Z")
Here’s a link that should raise a few hackles. > **[L. Ray Smith - Exposing Those Who Contradict](https://bible-truths.com/)** > > bible, bible study, hell, tithing, tithe ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851/100 "2006-08-16T03:04:45Z")
[QUOTE=sfworker] I appreciate the warning, but I’ve been down this road more times than I can count. [/quote] Respectfully, I don’t think you have. At least not with anyone who knows what they’re talking about. You’ve already made a number of errors both factual and logical which suggest some inexperience in debating the subject matter. > [@](#): > > When I said that my “list” is cut and paste, I meant that the responses are just as hard to refute because it’s ALL conjecture anyway. No. I’m talking about hard factual errors and demonstrably incompatible contradictions. I’m not talking about translational mistakes or unfounded leaps of interpretation (which I get the impression is what really bothers you). > [@](#): > > Not I nor anyone here has any real proof of anything, just varying degrees of predication based on a personality nuances. I’m not sure what you mean by this but many of the errors I’m talking about are eminently provable and surmountable only by the most tortured reaches of speculation, false or unfounded historical claims, disengenuous interpetive devices and other tactics which, I assure you, can be easily countered, refuted and debunked. The Bible contains human error. There is really no question of that, but that, in itself, is not a disproof of the existence of God. You really shouldn’t get too hung up on tying your faith to a necessary belief in the infallibility of the Bible. You might not have realized it but you’ve been debating a couple of Christians in this very thread who can accept human error in the Bible without surrendering their faith. It’s not as difficult as you think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/errors-in-the-torah-and-septuagint-fact-or-fiction/368851.md?page=6)