# Escaping to the Soviet Union **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 12, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120 "2013-05-12T01:53:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![daniel\_andrade\_carreno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@daniel\_andrade\_carreno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/daniel_andrade_carreno)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/1 "2013-05-12T01:53:39Z")
Hey pals, I just wanted to know if someone ever went to the soviet union from the capitalist bloc based on economic circumstances. Let me explain myself further, I have read for example that Lee Harvey Oswald defected to the Soviet Union because he was a communist at heart, that’s not the type of info I want, I want if you know the case of someone who probably thought like this: ‘‘Hey I’m extremely poor in this country, and maybe if I escape to the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, etc. I will live in better conditions because of the equal distribution of wealth there’’ Like people did for example from East Berlin to the West, but the opposite way, a poor West Berliner escaping to the East looking for better conditions of life. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/2 "2013-05-12T02:22:29Z")
[Unemployed Americans went to the USSR, but not many were heard from again](http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0143115421/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/176-6855445-0998867) ---
**Author:** ![daniel\_andrade\_carreno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@daniel\_andrade\_carreno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/daniel_andrade_carreno)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/3 "2013-05-12T03:13:24Z")
Have you ever heard about cases from West Germany to East Germany in particular? ---
**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/4 "2013-05-12T04:25:14Z")
Just by pure luck I left the SD a minute ago to go to [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) and found this: [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0143115421/ref=s9\_psimh\_gw\_p14\_d0\_i1?pf\_rd\_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf\_rd\_s=center-2&pf\_rd\_r=0STCNNGD0A7BQJ9ES13F&pf\_rd\_t=101&pf\_rd\_p=1389517282&pf\_rd\_i=507846](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0143115421/ref=s9_psimh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0STCNNGD0A7BQJ9ES13F&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846) Don’t have any idea how realiable this is but I thought it was neat running across this right after looking at this thread. Anywho it doesn’t sound like going to the Soviet Union worked out very well for them. Well crap. I guess my attention span is even shorter than I thought it was. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/5 "2013-05-12T04:27:29Z")
> [@daniel\_andrade\_carreno](#): > > Have you ever heard about cases from West Germany to East Germany in particular? [Dean Reed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Reed) was an American who moved to East Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/6 "2013-05-12T04:35:50Z")
Documentary: [Letters from Karelia](http://www.onf.ca/film/letters_from_karelia/) Finnish Canadians from Thunder Bay went to Soviet Karelia in the 30s to build the workers’ paradise. They ended up getting purged by Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![Willcross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Willcross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Willcross)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/7 "2013-05-12T11:28:15Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > [Unemployed Americans went to the USSR, but not many were heard from again](http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0143115421/ref=redir_mdp_mobile/176-6855445-0998867) Just wanted to say thanks for this post. The book looks really interesting, I bought the ebook version of it last night, and started reading it right away! ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/8 "2013-05-12T14:42:00Z")
> [@daniel\_andrade\_carreno](#): > > Have you ever heard about cases from West Germany to East Germany in particular? Just prior to the ‘80s Miners’ Strike, which result destroyed the power of trade unionism in Britain, one trade union official fled to Stasiland. Google seems to indicate it was in 1977 and his name was Maurice Jones. He was already a communist ( not that anyone in Britain cared any more, except for a few paranoid old generals: communism was recognised as a busted flush by the late 1950s here ), and Arthur Scargill, a quazi-communist, went over to guide him back. After three weeks he returned. Further google shows his \*\*[google-blog.](http://mauricejonesauthor.blogspot.co.uk/)\*\*From which it appears he no longer dislikes Lady Thatcher, but he’s not fond of Arthur Scargill. The second is not surprising, not many of the left were fans of Scargill’s _ **unique** _ style; neither is the first, because temperamentally the crazy old fool was close to being a communist herself, minus the economic factor which made her prefer the market system. Scargill would not have fitted into the soviet hierarchy, she would. Also communism like all totalitarian systems abhores independent trade unions, as did she. ---
**Author:** ![Eurograff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Eurograff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eurograff)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/9 "2013-05-12T15:10:07Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Documentary: [Letters from Karelia](http://www.onf.ca/film/letters_from_karelia/) > > Finnish Canadians from Thunder Bay went to Soviet Karelia in the 30s to build the workers’ paradise. They ended up getting purged by Stalin. This. There has recently been a lot of talk about this, and apparently the Finnish Americans and Finnish Canadians moving to Soviet Karelia in the 30s were the largest population ever to move out from North America. For such a large amount of people, motives were of course various. Many followed communist ideology, others went indeed to build the workers’ paradise, some just looked for work and better conditions of life. Later Stalin’s purges were catastrophic for them, but those who survived continued to live their lives in the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/10 "2013-05-12T15:18:46Z")
> [@daniel\_andrade\_carreno](#): > > Have you ever heard about cases from West Germany to East Germany in particular? The number of persons who left West Germany to settle in East Germany from 1949 to 1989 is surprisingly high (about 500,000), but there were very few who did this for purely economic reasons. It did happen to some degree in the 1950s: The economic recovery in West Germany after the war hadn’t yet fully kicked in, there was still unemployment and the welfare system wasn’t as generous as it was to become in later years. Also, at that time, the decision to go the East didn’t mean you would burn all bridges. You still had the option of going back if things didn’t turn out the way you thought they would. This situation changed fundamentally after the Berlin Wall was built in 1961. In later years, it’s fair to say that being unemployed in West Germany in general provided a standard of living which was at least as good (or as bad) as having a job in East Germany. Those who did go to East Germany for what could be described as economic reasons probably were folks who found it hard to fit in and keep a steady job under any circumstance: Even in East Germany, you were expected to at least show up every morning in your factory and kind of do what you are told to do. Another group of people were those who had left East Germany for West Germany, but found that the streets in the West weren’t necessarily paved with gold. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/11 "2013-05-14T14:00:07Z")
ISTR readings that a handful of Americans (like, 3 or so) defected to North Korea years ago. As far as anybody knows, they’re still there. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/12 "2013-05-14T14:26:59Z")
It’s been on my reading list for _years_, but John Scott was an American who went to the USSR in the 1930s to work on the Magnitogorsk steel plant. He married a Russian, came back to the states, and wrote _Behind the Urals_. I understand he also favored communist ideology. But he was an ordinary worker (a welder with no other claim to fame on his Wikipedia page than this trip) who jumped ship from the US at the nadir of the Great Depression to go work in Russia, and he wrote a whole book about it, you’d probably like to look into him. I’d also look up Armand Hammer, multimillionaire businessman, who had a lot of ventures and connections in the USSR. I haven’t read enough about him to have any actual idea of his motivations, but, he got busted for giving illegal campaign contributions to Nixon if that helps any. Again not an exact fit since he didn’t flee poverty and he didn’t permanently resettle to the USSR. The North Koreans welcomed a handful of American defectors in the 1950s-1970s, many of whom are linked from the Wikipedia page of [James Joseph Dresnok](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joseph_Dresnok); there’s another list of [defectors to Communist China during the Korean War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_British_defectors_in_the_Korean_War#List_of_defectors). P.S. Whenever you’re thinking of Lee Harvey Oswald’s motivations, remember it’s going to be necessarily a little clouded because he was a nutter at heart. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/13 "2013-05-14T14:29:13Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > ISTR readings that a handful of Americans (like, 3 or so) defected to North Korea years ago. As far as anybody knows, they’re still there. [This dude](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Robert_Jenkins) came back (and was convicted of desertion.) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/14 "2013-05-14T14:31:22Z")
As I recall that was the plan of the People’s Temple group. One quick[Cite](http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/FAQ/q_USSR.htm) ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/15 "2013-05-14T15:22:15Z")
W.D. (Big Bill) Haywood, founder of the IWW and a leader of the American Socialist Party fled the U.S. for Russia in 1921. His primary motivation at the time was to avoid imprisonment (under the ill-advised and ultimately embarassing Espionage Act of 1917) but it would not be inaccurate to say there was an economic motivation as well, since his prosecution under the act stemmed from his economic activities, i.e. labor union activism. For a time he served as a consultant to Lenin’s Bolshevik government, but Stalin’s rise to power ended that. Haywood died in Moscow, under conditions of poverty and obscurity, having learned at first hand that Stalinism was fully as hostile & exploitative toward labor as was 20th-century laissez faire Capitalism. SS ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/16 "2013-05-14T17:12:34Z")
There was a french movie of the 1970’s called Baiser Rouge(?) or Red Kiss. The central character is a young girl, her “uncle” returns to Paris from the Soviet Union in the late 50’s or early 60’s; apparently went over there to participate in the Workers’ Paradise, and once Stalin died, he was released from the gulag and allowed to go back to France. He tries to tell her parents how out-to-lunch their communist ideals are. I’m not sure how much that is based on reality, but the theme of the movie seemed to be idealism vs. real life. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/17 "2013-05-14T18:04:33Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > … there’s another list of [defectors to Communist China during the Korean War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_British_defectors_in_the_Korean_War#List_of_defectors). There’s an interesting documentary about what happened to the Americans who opted to go to China after the Korean War: [They Chose China](http://www.nfb.ca/film/they_chose_china/). ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/18 "2013-05-14T18:08:39Z")
Gerard Depardieu established residency in Russia to avoid astronomical income taxes in France. [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/23/gerard-depardieu-russian-citizen_n_2749455.html) If that’s not escaping for economic reasons, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/19 "2013-05-14T18:20:44Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Gerard Depardieu established residency in Russia to avoid astronomical income taxes in France. [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/23/gerard-depardieu-russian-citizen_n_2749455.html) > If that’s not escaping for economic reasons, I don’t know what is. Modern day Russia is hardly the Soviet Union. It’s doubtful Depardieu would have chosen the old USSR to establish residency under similar circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120/20 "2013-05-14T19:52:11Z")
And he didn’t even apply through a normal process, or actually, physically set residence there: he got it as a gift. Russians are not communists any more, but they still love anything that will make for good propaganda. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/escaping-to-the-soviet-union/658120.md?page=2)