# ESPN. Really? The Arthur Ashe award to Jenner? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489 "2015-06-02T23:36:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/81 "2015-06-05T21:40:27Z")
I think you meant to say no amount of surgery will restore your brain function, **Clothy**. ---
**Author:** ![jayrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/47e85d/32.png) [@jayrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayrey)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/82 "2015-06-05T21:52:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think it’s quite appropriate to give the award to Caitlyn Jenner. Of course we all sympathize with cancer patients, which is why giving the award to a cancer victim/patient/survivor doesn’t make as much sense. There is nobody rooting against cancer patients. Nobody thinks their struggle is sinful or immoral. The cancer patient doesn’t have to overcome self doubts about whether or not to seek treatment. The cancer patient doesn’t have to worry about whether seeking treatment will hurt his or her family. The cancer patient can count on their families and communities rallying around them. Not so much the transgender person. This is the most lucid and compelling explanation yet. Thank you, **BobLibDem** , for this excellent perspective. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/83 "2015-06-06T00:10:28Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > He got the gender right. No amount of surgery will change the fact that Bruce Jenner is a male. So what, just bored today? 😃 You see sex and gender as binary, immutable, and determined at birth. I get that. There is an awful lot of evidence that your view is incorrect. And to be perfectly honest, I think you’d be much happier on the whole if you worked to overcome binary thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/84 "2015-06-06T00:33:39Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > He got the gender right. No amount of surgery will change the fact that Bruce Jenner is a male. That seems like a difficult argument. Presumably you’re arguing that gender is fixed by biology - a person is whatever gender their body is even if they mentally feel like the opposite gender. But if that’s the case, then doesn’t changing the body change the gender? If a man’s body is transformed into a woman’s body (by surgery or magic or transporter malfunction) then doesn’t biological determinism say that person is now a woman? Even if they still feel like a man on the inside? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/85 "2015-06-06T02:18:51Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > He got the gender right. No amount of surgery will change the fact that Bruce Jenner is a male. What determines gender? Chromosomes?[If so, then all these people are male, since they are all XY](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Orchids01.JPG). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/86 "2015-06-06T03:22:37Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What determines gender? Chromosomes?[If so, then all these people are male, since they are all XY](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Orchids01.JPG). Wait, does that mean if the one in the middle bottom row gives me wood that I’m sexually attracted to a man!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/87 "2015-06-06T03:23:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you meant to say no amount of surgery will restore your brain function, **Clothy**. “Restore”? Did you mean “start”? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/88 "2015-06-07T04:02:41Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/89 "2015-06-07T05:17:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Wait, does that mean if the one in the middle bottom row gives me wood that I’m sexually attracted to a man!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: According to **Clothahump** , yes. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/90 "2015-06-07T07:51:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > My understanding of the issues, stigma, options, and lives of transgender people was greatly enhanced by [**Una Persson** ’s thread a year and a half ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=711614), but I have not seen Ms. (?) Jenner’s interview yet. Thank you very much for saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/91 "2015-06-07T17:57:34Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Thank you very much for saying that. No, thank you for starting that thread and for being so patient in your posts. It was one of the most worthwhile threads that these boards have had in the past few years. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/92 "2015-06-07T18:19:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, thank you for starting that thread and for being so patient in your posts. It was one of the most worthwhile threads that these boards have had in the past few years. Well whaddaya know? We agree on something. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/93 "2015-06-08T07:41:44Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > “…presented to the sports-related person(s) or team, irrespective of gender or sport contested, adjudged to have made the most significant or compelling humanitarian contribution in transcendence of sports in a given year.” > It’s specifically for transcending sports, not for being an athlete. And while people who die with dignity do make a contribution, no athlete has ever made the kind of contribution to transgender awareness that Caitlyn Jenner is making. > > I think she is the obvious choice for the award, even if it weren’t going to considerably increase the audience for the ESPYs. Death doesn’t transcend sports? Everybody dies, few people choose to have an elective surgery to change their gender. Hill was the clear choice. It’s pandering to liberal piety that got Jenner the nod. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/94 "2015-06-08T08:45:46Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Death doesn’t transcend sports? No, it doesn’t. If you think it does, go ahead and make your argument, but right now it seems like you’ve joined **BubbaDog** in not understanding what the phrase “transcend sports” means or the concept for the award. With your short post you’ve managed come across as an ignorant asshole bigot. Let’s see if your argument for your position can help dig you out of that hole; I suspect you’ll be in over your head before the 3rd sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/95 "2015-06-08T08:54:29Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Everybody dies, athletes and non-athletes alike. Of course it transcends sports. It’s moronic zealotry of the worst kind not to see it. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > With your short post you’ve managed come across as an ignorant asshole bigot. Let’s see if your argument for your position can help dig you out of that hole; I suspect you’ll be in over your head before the 3rd sentence. You’re the one who claims death doesn’t transcend sports. Spare me the condescension you dolt. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/96 "2015-06-08T08:58:56Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > The outrage has nothing to do with Noah Galloway or any other alternate choice, and everything to do with the fact that Caitlyn Jenner is transgender. Caitlyn is the clear, obvious choice for this award, and the only reason that other names are being promoted is because people don’t want her to receive it. > > The good news is that ESPN made the right choice, and all the noise on the Internet won’t change that. Do you honestly believe that people only disagree with picking Jenner out of bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/97 "2015-06-08T09:00:42Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Death doesn’t transcend sports? Everybody dies, few people choose to have an elective surgery to change their gender. Yes, death transcends sports. It is, however, not generally considered a “significant or compelling humanitarian contribution.” What is with people focusing on one part and not the whole thing? ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/98 "2015-06-08T09:15:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, death transcends sports. It is, however, not generally considered a “significant or compelling humanitarian contribution.” > > What is with people focusing on one part and not the whole thing? Teaching people to bravely face their demise is at least as compelling a humanitarian contribution as having elective surgery and becoming a cover model. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/99 "2015-06-08T10:13:00Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Teaching people to bravely face their demise is at least as compelling a humanitarian contribution as having elective surgery and becoming a cover model. For very small values of humanitarian, maybe. You’re still omitting “significant” and “compelling.” As has been pointed out, sports people bravely facing death happens all the time. Sure, her situation was tragic, and she was brave to face all that. But that is not enough to make her a recipient for the award. What’s funny is that there actually is an argument that Hill should have been a contender, yet you haven’t made it. She started a fucking cancer research foundation. She used her playing basketball as a way to make money for said foundation. That’s something that transcends sports. That is something significant. In a year where nothing else had happened, she could very well have been the recipient of the award. The problem is that there are a lot of famous cancer patients who start fundraising organizations. But Jenner did something very different. And, as BobLibDem said, the trans gender cause right now needs defending. Hill had everyone going along with her the entire way. Jenner did not and still does not. And she’s taken the trans gender cause and put it front and center–a cause that hasn’t had that yet, unlike cancer. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/100 "2015-06-08T10:24:48Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Do you honestly believe that people only disagree with picking Jenner out of bigotry? Are there possibly some people who disagree for other reasons? Sure. But nearly every one of them has disagreed by making fun of Jenner’s transition. You can hate Jenner all you want, but you don’t get to make fun of her transition without being labeled as transphobic. Even the OP, which started out well but ill-informed, eventually descended into transphobia with the pointed use of “he” throughout the entire post. A “bleeding heart” liberal knows better, and everyone else has been using “she” througout. And the OP said she’d read them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489.md?page=6)