# ESPN. Really? The Arthur Ashe award to Jenner? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 2, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489 "2015-06-02T23:36:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/101 "2015-06-08T10:55:32Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Do you honestly believe that people only disagree with picking Jenner out of bigotry? Yes. They’re pretending to misunderstand the nature of the award as a fig leaf. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/102 "2015-06-08T10:59:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Are there possibly some people who disagree for other reasons? Sure. But nearly every one of them has disagreed by making fun of Jenner’s transition. You can hate Jenner all you want, but you don’t get to make fun of her transition without being labeled as transphobic. Just to pick a nit, I don’t think **BubbaDog** has come across as transphobic. He just has a another candidate. \*I make a significant distinction between not liking Caitlyn Jenner for her role in the on-going debacle that is the Kardashian/Jenner clan and not liking Caitlyn because she used to be named Bruce. The former is fair criticism, the latter is not. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/103 "2015-06-08T12:02:56Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > He got the gender right. No amount of surgery will change the fact that Bruce Jenner is a male. Well bless your heart. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/104 "2015-06-08T14:01:44Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Just to pick a nit, I don’t think **BubbaDog** has come across as transphobic. He just has a another candidate. > > \*I make a significant distinction between not liking Caitlyn Jenner for her role in the on-going debacle that is the Kardashian/Jenner clan and not liking Caitlyn because she used to be named Bruce. The former is fair criticism, the latter is not. You’ve pretty much summed up my argument. While I believe that Hill, Galloway, and Jenner where all admirable people for their contributions to their causes I disliked Caitlyn Jenner when she was Bruce. As Bruce she was part of a pack of attention-seeking-for-money assholes. I don’t see how being a transgender is an automatic redemption from that. I gave her a second place finish because I deducted points for being a Kardashian in disguise. One can state that my grading system is flawed or biased since I dislike the candidate. I’m OK with that. Or one can stick their head squarely up their own ass and scream at me for hating transgenders. It’s all just rocks in the quarry to me. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/105 "2015-06-08T14:11:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes. They’re pretending to misunderstand the nature of the award as a fig leaf. Hey, it’s quite possible that I DO misunderstand the nature of the award. If Galloway somehow isn’t eligible (I think he is) then Caitlyn Jenner is my choice. I’m not pretending anything other than the pretense that you are intelligent. There is a rush of some people here to declare anyone and everyone who doesn’t believe that Caitlyn Jenner is the spiffiest, most nifty, cool person in the world - must be a bigot. It’s an incredibly closed mined position. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/106 "2015-06-08T15:32:39Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > There is a rush of some people here to declare anyone and everyone who doesn’t believe that Caitlyn Jenner is the spiffiest, most nifty, cool person in the world - must be a bigot. > > It’s an incredibly closed mined position. It certainly would be…if anyone actually believed that Jenner is “the spiffiest, most nifty, cool person in the world.” As far as I can tell, no one here holds that position. ETA: I absolutely agree with you about her being a Kardashian in (very thin) disguise. I was not a fan of Bruce, I’m not a fan of Caitlin. I do admire her bravery, however, and am thankful for her sharing her transition and her story with the world. I think she’s a perfectly acceptable Ashe Award recipient. . ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/107 "2015-06-08T16:08:58Z")
> [@andros](#): > > ETA: I absolutely agree with you about her being a Kardashian in (very thin) disguise. I was not a fan of Bruce, I’m not a fan of Caitlin. I do admire her bravery, however, and am thankful for her sharing her transition and her story with the world. I think she’s a perfectly acceptable Ashe Award recipient. > . I’m not taking a position on this award (which I’ve never heard of prior to this issue breaking out). But I would note that there’s less bravery involved in a Kardashian-type doing this than there would be for a normal person. These people are already out there exposing whatever of themselves they can and trying to shock the world by parading some more of themselves to the masses. Having a gender change is obviously a step further than most of their hijinks, but it’s not nearly as much of a step as it would be for someone who lived a life that was not based on constantly trying to attract attention to it. Especially as this too is to be documented in it’s own reality show. [FTR, this is **not** to say that this was all done for the publicity - it was clearly not. It’s solely an observation on how much “bravery” was involved in doing it. IMHO, not much if any.] ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/108 "2015-06-08T16:39:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [FTR, this is **not** to say that this was all done for the publicity - it was clearly not. It’s solely an observation on how much “bravery” was involved in doing it. IMHO, not much if any.] Have you read any of the commentary in this thread and around the Internet regarding Jenner? Even if you remove all of the comments based on her connection with the Kardashians, and focus solely on the evil, hateful things being said about her transgender status, that is still an awful lot of nastiness and hate being displayed. Willingness to face all of that, plus the rest of your life being ridiculed for who you are, and having a legacy of superb athleticism being tainted by some people’s lack of understanding, requires exceptional courage. It’s one thing to be in the public eye for something basically silly and harmless, and another thing to be in the public eye for something that is so thoroughly reviled by so many people. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/109 "2015-06-08T16:43:32Z")
Have you read any of the commentary in this thread and around the Internet regarding the Kardashians? ISTM that the exact opposite of what you imply is true. The ratio of positive to negative commentary that Jenner has gotten with this switch is far higher than she or any other Kardashians have ever had for anything else they’ve done. But even if you were right, it wouldn’t change my point. I was just saying it’s not as big of a step for her as it would be for a normal person. That would still hold. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/110 "2015-06-08T17:01:13Z")
I’m not qualified to judge relative degrees of courage. I get what you’re saying about the media-greedy nature of the Kardashian clan. But given that Caitlin was first known for being “the world’s greatest athlete” as a man, and given that the Kardashian women have garnered so much attention as paragons of traditional femininity, I cannot discount the guts it took for Caitlin to buck both of those in such a public way. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/111 "2015-06-08T23:32:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes. They’re pretending to misunderstand the nature of the award as a fig leaf. This absolutist, bimodal thinking is ill suited to deal with real life situations. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/112 "2015-06-09T08:26:01Z")
> [@andros](#): > > given that the Kardashian women have garnered so much attention as paragons of traditional femininity I just threw up in my mouth a little at that, and I’m not even a woman. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/113 "2015-06-09T09:19:07Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Just to pick a nit, I don’t think **BubbaDog** has come across as transphobic. He just has a another candidate. I agree he doesn’t come of as transphobic. More that there’s this guy he likes, and he doesn’t care if he doesn’t quite fit the requirements. And he doesn’t like Jenner. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/114 "2015-06-09T13:09:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that the exact opposite of what you imply is true. The ratio of positive to negative commentary that Jenner has gotten with this switch is far higher than she or any other Kardashians have ever had for anything else they’ve done. That’s largely a function of the fact that none of the Kardashians have ever done anything useful, though. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/115 "2015-06-10T01:18:30Z")
[QUOTE=Fotheringay-Phipps] The ratio of positive to negative commentary that Jenner has gotten with this switch is far higher than she or any other Kardashians have ever had for anything else they’ve done… [/QUOTE] > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s largely a function of the fact that none of the Kardashians have ever done anything useful, though. Hell, the ratio of positive to negative comments that Jenner got for appearing in “Can’t Stop the Music” is probably higher than what any of the other Kardashians have managed for any of their projects. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/116 "2015-06-10T02:16:01Z")
And yet the little one with the ass has 32.5 million Twitter followers. Sure some of those lot like her. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/117 "2015-06-10T14:22:33Z")
Of course a lot of people like her. There are billions of people in the world and they don’t all dislike her. But she doesn’t need everyone to like her. If you are in the entertainement business and 20 million people like and follow you and 100 million despise you and the rest don’t care, you are a huge success. (The same could be said of a lot of other entertainment-type people, e.g. Rush Limbaugh and that sort.) The point here is that if this is your business model - as it is in the case of the Kardashians - then doing something that brings you enormous attention, even if it’s mostly negative, is not a “brave” step, it’s simply par for the course and part of how you’ve chosen to live your life and pursue your career. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/118 "2015-06-10T14:34:39Z")
I get that. And yet, I’m not convinced that the business model in this case is predicated on accepting mostly negative attention. Rather, I’m not convinced that more people dislike Armenian-American Snooki than like her. But perhaps I have less faith in the tastes of the American Public. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/119 "2015-06-10T14:42:55Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I get that. > > And yet, I’m not convinced that the business model in this case is predicated on accepting mostly negative attention. Rather, I’m not convinced that more people dislike Armenian-American Snooki than like her. But perhaps I have less faith in the tastes of the American Public. Snooki is Chilean born, raised by Italians. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489/120 "2015-06-10T15:14:37Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Hell, the ratio of positive to negative comments that Jenner got for appearing in “Can’t Stop the Music” is probably higher than what any of the other Kardashians have managed for any of their projects. I don’t think some people are looking in the right (wrong) places to see the preponderance of negative (read: vile) comments about her. This is a pretty liberal leaning board and as such, I’ve often noticed that the participants occasionally feel that their viewpoints are more over-presented than they actually are. I’m as bleeding heart leftist as they come, but in the south (or hyper conservative / religious / traditional circles), this has been viewed with nothing but disgust, revulsion and hatred. The reactions are overwhelming horrific. So, if you want to more closely check out the Freepers, those in the Quicerfull movement, idiots on 4chan / YouTube / Yahoo, or anyone that loudly screams about it all being so unnatural, I think you’ll find there’s a lot less positivity than at first glance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/espn-really-the-arthur-ashe-award-to-jenner/721489.md?page=7)