That would perhaps be notable if it were a new policy. From your own cite:
But we are talking about predictions, not-after the-fact counting.
Strawman. We’re not talking about you, we’re talking about Congress.
No, it’s only genocide when it meets the deffinition of the word genocide. It’s a real word with an actual meaning attached to it. Throwing it around whenever a bunch of people are killed only weakens our understanding of the acutal reasons those people were killed and lessens our chances of stopping it.
Slightly off topic, but does anyone actually belive this. I can’t imagine the Pentagon doesn’t keep its own secret count of civilian casulties for future study.
Can you describe a war in which no civilians are killed? War is always going to cause some civilian deaths. Unless you are going to say that war is NEVER justified, the death of civilians, sad as it is, is simply not the **only **issue to be considered.
I think the official policy is that the Pentagon doesn’t report civilian deaths, to avoid making themselves look bad. That, of course, doesn’t preclude them from keeping track of civilian deaths internally for whatever purpose.
When the death toll above-and-beyond Saddam’s brutality and the imposition of economic sanctions reaches the multiple tens-of-thousands, I really don’t care whether the death was precisely caused by an American bomb being dropped on somebody’s head, or something less immediate. It’s still fairly clear that our invasion of Iraq is directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians. Think about those kinds of numbers. We’re talking, at the very least, 10-20 times the number of people killed on Sept. 11th, and completely without provocation.
I don’t don’t understand how anyone can call such wholesale slaughter acceptable. Get it through your skulls, Bush apologists: American is responsible for tens of thousands of civilian deaths in one country alone. And there was never any justification for it, real or imagined. Doesn’t that upset you? How can that not make you sick to your stomach? Don’t you realise how morally reprehensible your support for such heinous policy truly is? Are you truly not able to recognize the crimes being comitted here in the name of geopolitics and cheap fossil fuel?
I simply can’t understand support for this campaign. It seems utterly morally bankrupt to me.
Revisionist prattle. Congress is people like you and I – and normally they reflect they views of those they represent. Which explains (though in my mind, does not excuse) the green card given BushCo. I put myself out there as an example of the responses anti-war advocates were getting the the time – ridicule and derision. After all, we “were being histrionic” about the possible consequences. High civilian casualties and quagmires included.
Just in case you’ve have forgotten allow me to remind you that a great majority of Americans were very much pro-war*. Sure, many qualified their support by asking for UN approval, but in the end, when push came to shove and Shock & Awe was unleashed, Americans came together [almost] as one. In fact, I read a post by elucidator right around that time that I took the liberty of saving to my files, for I think it expressed quite forcefully the inevitability of said sentiment. Hope he won’t mind my reproducing it here:
I think we can all understand both the impetus and the frustration that drove him to pour out his feelings like that. In fact, it’s not hard to surmise that this Administration was counting on precisely those feelings from the remnants of the anti-war crowd – whose voices were ignored all along. Too busy preying on the post 9/11 trauma that left your country in a state of shock and allowed them to peddle their ignominious plans.
To put it simply: you were had.
And as much as elucidator has kept to his promise to never forgive, here’s someone else that will neither forgive nor forget. Yes, my blood boils over when I read articles like the one that started this thread – not that I need additional fuel. But Christ on a pogo stick, as Loopydude mentions in a prior post, I don’t effin’ understand how so many of you can still try to weasel your way out of what you own Government did in your name!
Just reading some of your responses I’m left slack-jawed. Here come xtisme, as per usual, with his lenghty scrolls…about nothing at all! To hear him tell it, it all boils down a to a simple mistake: ooopsie! Someone else I’ve never heard of, Malodorous, basically confirms what I wrote before: it’s alright if YOU do it, it only “wrong” when it’s the other guys! There’s really not that much to understand.
You did it. Many/most of you backed it. Call it mass murder, wholesale slaughter, war crimes…really, I don’t give a shit what you call it – dead are dead and there are dead by the thousands. But for fuck’s sake, take responsability for your own actions and demand some accountability from your Government’s. This continued apologetic paean to BushCo might sound good to your own ears, but it light of what you’ve actually done in Iraq, it is rather obscene to listen to if only for the memory of all the innocent lives taken.
No doubt this posting will be summarily dismissed as a rant by many of the same people I am directly or indirectly alluding to. So be it. After all, truth is a stranger to conviction.
Enjoy your conquests and dreams of empire. As we say in Spain, “no hay mal que cien años dure, ni cuerpo que lo resista.”
I’m convinced that history will not look kindly upon your latest exploits.
*A WORLD TRANSFORMED: FOREIGN POLICY ATTITUDES OF THE U.S. PUBLIC AFTER SEPTEMBER 11
Spain? We’re now getting reprimanded by SPAIN? The ones who lived happily under Facism and let the old buzzard die in his bed?
One more time. We’re talking about changing the parameters that existed at the time. Your experience on this board is irrelevant. It’s anecdotal. It’s not represntative of what Sentors would do.
Gee, almost as if they were more interested in political impact than accurate data, huh.
Methodological problems with study.
Peer-reviewed horseshit.
One last time.
Speaking of “irrelevance,” how, exactly, do you propose to go about the masturbatory mental exercise you propose? Time travel is not quite here yet, is it?
As for my “experience” is certainly a lot wider than the narrow scope of this board, and it also happens to be, you know…real. And mirrored infinitely all over the world. Or perchace you missed those er…minor protests prior to the invasion?
Did anybody listen? That’s the closest you’ll get to an answer to your hypothetical.
Mehitabel
Yes, Spain. The same Spain that got rid of the lying imbecil that crawled up Dubya’s behind.
There might be a lesson right there for the mighty US. We don’t take kindly to liers.
Do you? Answer, Nov 2nd.
As for Franco, I’m more than willing to discuss his regime and America’s backing of same – just another friendly dictator in a long list of same.
But this is not the thread for it.
Gee. Why do I certainly feel like Nostradamus?
Too easy.
Oh give me a break. 14,000 warrants genocide? Its not like the US deliberately seeked out these people and wanted to kill them, they got either caught in the crossfire, or were near suspected insurgents. Its war and a guerilla insurgency is bound to produce these numbers, not saying its right, but its not on purpose and its not something we don’t expect. Its more down to US blunders rather than US murderous intent.
You spread 14000 deaths over the entire population and state of Iraq, and the number is pretty lowfor each place.
Yep. A mere drop in the proverbial bucket.
Good thing you weren’t related to any of them, huh?
And even better that we’re not in The Pit.
Well, you said it and I agree what more can I say. Just because you’re on some ‘yankee go home’ streak, doesn’t mean you have more moral legitimacy or higher status than someone who sees the situation rationally. If you thought that war didn’t have peoples families being killed or wiped out, then you’re too naive.
America might have the worlds best army and airforce, but mix that with a poor Iraqi infrastructure and you’ll see why the conflict is so bloody.
If the Americans did kill 100,000 they would on estimate have to of killed 6000 a month to meet that quota. So yes, it does look like the number is a load of bollocks.
Oh Red Fury, its nice to know where your sentiments lie when critiziing the US Army, but funny enough to know its shut when Zarqawi and his gang, the insurgents, kill alot more. But I forget, you’re only here to prove how big and bad the American military is, not how sadistically evil people like him are.
Fair enough. Let’s hear that “rationality” that I am obviously missing.
Better not be of the 1-No WMDs, no problem, because 2-Saddam is linked to AQ and 9/11, ooops! he’s not but 3-We’re bringing freedom to the Iraqi people, variety.
Not into “casus belli buffets.” I’ve had my fill already, thank you.
As a common coutesy, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. You obviously haven’t read anything I’ve written so far. Please do so now, and when come back, bring argument.
Damn those Iraqis! They didn’t even have the courtesy to prepare their infrastructure so you could destroy it properly. And no flowers upon arrival either.
I mean, what the hell were they thinking! Talk about poor hosts.
And you base this considered opinion of yours on what, exactly? In the crossfire all these months no doubt. Glad to see you made it out alive.
1-US Army? Oh, that’s right, I forgot. You haven’t read a thing I’ve written. We’ll get back to this one when you do.
2-Zarqawi? Oh, I know, surely you must mean **this Zarqawi**:
**
That’s the one right? So, what about him?
Must. Try. Harder. To convince yourself.
I don’t think that the study says that Americans killed everyone. I think that it counts disease, accidents, simple criminal murders, etc.
I believe you’re right vis-a-vis the methodology. But putting aside the report for a minute, what I am interested in knowing is just how many people had to die in order for some of you to consider this invasion “unacceptable.” And please factor in all the lies and deceptions that led to this conflict into your answers.
Clarification: Simon, I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you weren’t in favor of this invasion – in fact, quite the contrary. Thus the question does not necessarily apply to you. But if you have any input on same, I’d love to hear it as you’re one the (very) few Republican posters I truly and honestly respect on this board. A rare breed indeed.
I’m used to be one of the few. Everyone coudl just tell that I was special right off the bat. Growing up people used to say that I’d been tetched.
“God musta reached down and tetched him right in the hed,” is what they used to say.
In politics, I find that if one start from the premise that the politicians are lying it’s hard to go wrong. (Doper pols excluded of course.) I just am afflicted with a congenital anti-gubmint disposition.
As such, I think that the goal of war should be to prevent one of the few even greater tragedies. Also, I admire the principle that Liberty is more valuable than Life.
So, as to this invasion in particular, I think that I’ll have to wait and see what we get out of it before i can decide how many lives I think it was worth. Currently, I’m not incredibly impressed with the early returns or projections on what we will get out of it.
Isn’t George W. Bush the one who sanctimoniously informed us all in one of the debates that he values all life? And yet the invasion that HE ORDERED has resulted in the deaths of perhaps as many as 100,000 Iraqis. It’s enough to make one want to puke. :mad: