# Estimates on the numbers of heaven and hell bound? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293 "2015-03-18T14:47:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/1 "2015-03-18T14:47:06Z")
Assuming one believes in an afterlife, what do the so-called authorities say about what the odds are of heading toward Heaven/Paradise on the one hand, or Hell/Damnation on the other? Is the average Joe headed up or down? I’ve heard of religions that claim some fixed number of people will be “saved”, or that there are a list of specific individuals who will be saved (apparently) no matter what, and still others that say it all depends on how you behave. But there oughta be some odds. This question was inspired by some threads I’ve seen where people explain that their religious beliefs give them some comfort while contemplating death or life after death. And while I’m reasonably sure that they think this because of course THEY will be among the saved, I wonder what claims theologians or philosophers have said about it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/2 "2015-03-18T14:56:36Z")
Scripture says, \*“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” \*(Matthew 7:13-14) So the number of people Heaven-bound is significantly less than the number Hell-bound. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/3 "2015-03-18T15:00:51Z")
who would be an authority? if you were among the 144,000 what would you care what any authority said? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/4 "2015-03-18T15:03:21Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Scripture says, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14) > So in Christian doctrine, the number of people Heaven-bound is significantly less than the number Hell-bound. Not necessarily so. While some denominations do hold that few are saved (especially the Calvinist denominations), or that some specific number of souls are saved (I think Jehovah’s Witnesses have some number), Catholic soteriology allows for the at least the possibility of universal salvation (i.e., all souls are saved). See _Revelations of Divine Love_, by Julian of Norwich, and also recent remarks of Pope Francis. I think the theologian Karl Rahner had planned to do some work on the topic of universal salvation, also, but ran out of time (meaning he died). ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/5 "2015-03-18T15:18:17Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > who would be an authority? > > if you were among the 144,000 what would you care what any authority said? _Some_ authority came up with the number 144,000. If you believe in it then you care, at least about _that_ authority. What does that authority say about how to get on the list? Is this a list that is fixed for the whole of human history, were the people on it put there long before they were ever born? Can one be swapped off it and someone else swapped on? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/6 "2015-03-18T15:20:40Z")
144,000 does not refer to the total number of people who will be saved. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/7 "2015-03-18T15:21:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > 144,000 does not refer to the total number of people who will be saved. I’ve heard the number used in that context. If that’s not correct, what is? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/8 "2015-03-18T15:25:55Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > _Some_ authority came up with the number 144,000. If you believe in it then you care, at least about _that_ authority. What does that authority say about how to get on the list? Is this a list that is fixed for the whole of human history, were the people on it put there long before they were ever born? Can one be swapped off it and someone else swapped on? Christians disagree about how to “get on the list.” Some Protestants believe in predestination, meaning that some number of souls are created as the elect, those who will be saved (and some, for those who believe in double predestination, are created to be damned). For those who believe this, there’s nothing anyone can do to get on the list. It was all decided (predestined) by God. Others believe that faith alone can save one’s soul. Others believe that faith and good works are necessary for salvation, and enough of both will get you on the list. Some (probably small) number of Christians believe that all souls are saved. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/9 "2015-03-18T15:29:25Z")
Revelation, Ch. 7: > [@](#): > > 144,000 Sealed > > 7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. > > 5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, > from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, > from the tribe of Gad 12,000, > 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, > from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, > from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, > 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, > from the tribe of Levi 12,000, > from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, > 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, > from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, > from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. > > 9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: > > “Salvation belongs to our God, > who sits on the throne, > and to the Lamb.” So you’ve got 144,000 ‘sealed’, 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel - but you’ve got a great multitude beyond counting before the throne of the Lamb, giving praise to him. So clearly the 144K is only a small fraction of the saved, even if one takes Revelation literally, which would be a silly thing to do, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/10 "2015-03-18T15:29:35Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’ve heard the number used in that context. If that’s not correct, what is? In Revelations they’re sealed as servants of God, if my understanding is correct, but there are still many more people saved in history than just 144,000. There are over a billion people in the world who profess to be Christians, and doubtlessly a huge number in the past as well. Even if only 1% of them are “true” born-again saved believers who went to or will go to Heaven, that still, mathematically, works out to a far greater number than 144,000. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/11 "2015-03-18T15:33:01Z")
If it helps y’all with your calculations, I’m hell bound. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/12 "2015-03-18T16:04:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In Revelations they’re sealed as servants of God, if my understanding is correct, but there are still many more people saved in history than just 144,000. > There are over a billion people in the world who profess to be Christians, and doubtlessly a huge number in the past as well. Even if only 1% of them are “true” born-again saved believers who went to or will go to Heaven, that still, mathematically, works out to a far greater number than 144,000. Then I would argue that none of these 144,000 are distined to Heaven. Who wants to be a servant for eternity? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/13 "2015-03-18T16:09:16Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Then I would argue that none of these 144,000 are distined to Heaven. Who wants to be a servant for eternity? That’s your view. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/14 "2015-03-18T16:51:16Z")
I concur with the philosopher Rhymin’ Simon on this question: _I’ve reason to believe We all will be received In Graceland_ But not as we are. I believe we will have to let go of the parts of us that are wrongnesses: all anger and strife and jealousy, all regard of ourselves as better than others, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/15 "2015-03-18T17:05:42Z")
It doesn’t seem to me that the 144,000 is to be taken literally. 12 is the number signifying completeness, 12,000 might be regarded a completely large number rather than a specific integer, 12 x 12,000 might me merely taking completeness to another level. Personally, I don’t think Revelation should have been included in the Bible and those that make more than an occasional reference to it are I believe giving it far too much credence. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/16 "2015-03-18T17:16:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I concur with the philosopher Rhymin’ Simon on this question: > > _I’ve reason to believe > We all will be received > In Graceland_ > > But not as we are. I believe we will have to let go of the parts of us that are wrongnesses: all anger and strife and jealousy, all regard of ourselves as better than others, and so forth. Are you talking about some kind of purgatory/waiting room where we contemplate our faults, or re-living lives until we learn, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/17 "2015-03-18T17:31:49Z")
[Similar thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=617038), started by yours truly a few years back. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/18 "2015-03-18T20:47:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Revelation, Ch. 7: > > > [@](#): > > > > \< 12,000 “sealed” from each tribe \> What, nobody “sealed” (saved?) from the Tribe of Dan? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/19 "2015-03-19T04:56:18Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Assuming one believes in an afterlife, what do the so-called authorities say about what the odds are of heading toward Heaven/Paradise on the one hand, or Hell/Damnation on the other? Is the average Joe headed up or down? > > I’ve heard of religions that claim some fixed number of people will be “saved”, or that there are a list of specific individuals who will be saved (apparently) no matter what, and still others that say it all depends on how you behave. But there oughta be some odds. The answer to your question is that estimates vary widely. Ultra-conservative Catholics sometimes point to medieval Saints who said that only one in a thousand or fewer reach Heaven. John Calvin, if I recall correctly, estimated ten percent. On the other end of the spectrum, some believe in universal salvation. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2015, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293/20 "2015-03-19T06:25:46Z")
I get the impression that Catholic doctrine is based on the Hellenic Hadean model, with Elysium, Asphodel and Tartarus. Some people go directly to hell because they deserve it; nearly everyone else does a stint in Purgatory, which the faithful move quickly out of and into the Kingdom because of their faith; some will be taken from Purgatory to Hell because they cannot free themselves of their evil; some will find redemption in Purgatory, and move on up; but for the great many, they will just spend eternity in the middle, neither damned to torment nor elevated to Lyre City. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/estimates-on-the-numbers-of-heaven-and-hell-bound/715293.md?page=2)