# Eternal Damnation....Eep. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344 "2005-10-21T22:27:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/41 "2005-10-23T16:39:03Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Ok. I’ve met a good few people who thought that a person who believed in God was always, _always_ gooder than someone who didn’t. Maybe it terms of what God likes and dislikes, fine, but many people have a similar moral code, and can do just as much good while they’re here, without believing. Nice to know it’s not every Christian that’s up themselves 😛 Did you say gooder? Hmmmm You point out what I see as an unpleasent side effect of dogma. For some there seems to be a need to believe, “my religion is the right one” or “the truest one” and that leads to an attitude of slightly superior even while they are telling you how God loves everyone equally. There’sa also the idea that There’s also the attitude that Christian love, and/or the love of Jesus is superior to the love of atheists and any other religion. When Christians do something kind and generous it’s because of the love of Jesus. When athrists do something equally kind and generous, it just isn’t quite as good. I do think this attitude puts a lot of peolpe off, but there are plenty of wonderful Christians and other believers who don’t think that way. > [@](#): > > Ah, see, now I think this **would** be the actions of a benovolent god. I can’t remember where I’ve heard it, but there’s a story that says when we die, we go to see God and he looks at us, with all of our graces and all of our flaws. He sees you entirely, and you have to stand there and (probably, we’re not all good) feel shame in a lot of the stuff we’ve done. And then he forgives us. Um, well yeah. I mentioned it earlier in this very thread, but perhaps you’ve heard it someplace else as well. I don’t think it’s a matter of “_and then_” he forgives us. I think it’s a matter of us giving up the illusions that keep us from God and each other. One example, If seeking the approval of others is more important to us than being loving and truthful we only damage ourselves and stall our own growth. Hopefully at some point we begin to realize this and make a conscious choice to change our attitude. Life’s experiences will guide us and teach us if we pay attention and have the courage to challenge ourselves. As **Lib** often puts it. We decide what we value most. Consciously or unconsciously. > [@](#): > > Seems good to me; appropriate punishment for murderers etc, appropriate benevolence for lovely nice people. The only thing we have to face would be ourselves, which, really, is probably the fairest judgement possible. > Still doesn’t mean I believe in him though 😛 Right, we have to face the consequences of our own choices. Personal responsibility. Although I use the term God it’s almost a metaphor for me. I don’'t think it’s nessecary to see God as a seperate being out there somewhere apart from ourselves. Infact I’d say that that attitude of God as the seperate being who judges us only impairs our understanding and growth. If you don’t want to think of God as him then consider thinking of the sum total of us. Buddhism has a concept of the Universal mind or something like that. > [@](#): > > If the theology isn’t important, why are there so many seperate sects and belief groups? Seems some people don’t share that particular notion. I do, however; this sounds again like the priorities of a benevolent god. To some doctrine is very important. It’s ridiculous why some churches have split off into other sects with slightly different doctrines. Of course more than a couple were started by a scam artist with a good story and a new twist on an old story. It’s interesting to me that even even a bogus story can be sincerely helpful to some people. > [@](#): > > Well, no. You need a philosophical justification. I can’t remember the exact quote, but didn’t someone once say “Take the universe, smash it into pieces, hammer at it, break it down into it’s smallest parts, and crush it into dust, and then show me one atom of justice”. This is love, not justice, but the point still holds; there is no such thing as a physical particle of “goodness” - and i’d imagine that most believers of all faiths would agree you can’t have an physical representation of “goodness”. What we do have, however, is belief in deities, moral codes, or a drive to do what’s right - these are all acts from our own core (or soul, if you prefer the term), as spiritual or psychological beings, and as such, we’ve created our own “philosophical justification” for why we should do good, and why being good is the right thing anyway. I agree. What I think is cool is that it doesn’t matter what your foundation is, except in how it reflects in your choices and how those choices affect the world around you. One Christian is a homophobic bigot who exudes pious arrogence. Another is a sincere kind and loving person who dedicates themselves to being of service to others. Both have a foundation of Christianity superficialy at least, but the deeper motavations, “what you value most” must be different. The same for all other belief systems. IMHO it would be better to discuss common values and principles, such as justice, honesty, courage, compassion, mutual respect, which span all belief systems religious and otherwise, instead of diving ourselves into factions or religion, race, sexual preference, gender, etc. > [@](#): > > This debate assumes God exists, that at some point we will die and be sent to either “a good place” or “a bad place”. And, I, personally, do not think that being sent to the “bad place” is just punishment for _anyone_. That said, here’s the only person that seemed to address that; **FriarTed**. Really? In saying that I don’t believe in Hell as a place of punishment or a God who does judge and punish us, have I not dealt with it? > [@](#): > > This assumes God/JC are just. I see no proof they are; that’s what this debate is about, the actions that they undertake after we die do not seem either just or benovolent. And if we’re asked to believe in someone’s justness when they have little, well, i’m afraid i’m not going to. So off to Hell with me. I do assume God and JC are just. The well from which all love is drawn, and the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If a doctrine doesn’t sense to me along these assumed guidelines then I reject it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/42 "2005-10-23T16:49:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There are many belief systems, usually involving cyclic existence (reincarnation), when one tried to purify ones soul to reach nirvana (heaven), this is usually done by leading harder and harder lives till you have paid for all your transgressions. Since we can’t live perfect lives, it would seem that this process would be unending, and progressively harder/miserable - which except for hope, sounds very much like a view of hell. > > This is what we, if left by ourselves, would bring upon ourselves. God is giving us a ‘OUT’, if we want to take it. The option is there if you want it, the door is open. It is humans that left God, it is humans that should be the ones to return to God. You sumation of reincarnation is way off. You don’t lead harder and harder lives until you pay for your transgressions. You surrender your illusions and as you do you become more peaceful and loving, and more conscious. You, through practice and experience, learn to surrender the illusion that we are seperate from God and each other. You learn to surrender the illusion of fear for this brief mortal life and live in the eternal. You say we can’t lead perfect lives and yet we are asked to “Be perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect” and to" leave the foundation of repentance from dead works and continue on to perfection" Did Jesus lead a perfect life? How is a perfect life defined? This may be a bit of a hijack. If it’s to far off subject we’ll leave this discussion for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/43 "2005-10-23T17:05:22Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Ok. This thread is getting more and more into a “hey, here are my beliefs!” kind of thing. Let me try and make it a bit more simple for everyone sorry for digressing. These threads tend to get that way. > [@](#): > > 1. What do you, personally, believe Hell( or the “bad place” that some people will inevitably go to) is like? What form would it take? I tend not to believe in it as a place of punishment. > [@](#): > > 1. Do you agree that there are some people, no matter how small an amount, that will be going to this Hell? The question that remains open for me is are there souls who will not choose love and truth even after coming to full awareness of it. Some believe all will eventually wake up. Since I don’t believe in Hell in that way I’ll skip the other questions. > [@](#): > > I don’t want an analysis of what is a “bad” or “good” person; I just want to know whether, **in any cases at all whatsoever** , you can tell me of a person who deserves to go to the Hell that you believe in, for eternity with no hope of salvation. Because if you can’t, then no matter what his other great virtues, God is not a benevolent deity. What?? Or if they can’t then perhaps the whole concept of Hell and how it relates to man relationship with God, needs to be rethought. It doesn’t mean God is not benevolent. Or, are you saying that a concept of a benevolent God and a concept of Hell cannot coexist in the same belief system without one contradicting the other? ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/44 "2005-10-23T18:36:46Z")
Yeah, the “God works in mysterious ways” is a cheap dodge, but if God really were a petty dictator who puts people into heaven or hell basen on his own whims, what would we be able to do about it? (Of course, I don’t deny that the above scenario described would suck, so I tend to take his word that he’s a nice guy and plays by his own rules.) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/45 "2005-10-23T19:18:31Z")
> [@](#): > > You sumation of reincarnation is way off. You have the market cornered on reincarnation theory? There are many different belief systems which use cyclic existance. Some contend as one ‘advances’ to advance further you need more challenges in one’s life, which generally means a harder life. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/46 "2005-10-23T19:25:05Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Really? In saying that I don’t believe in Hell as a place of punishment or a God who does judge and punish us, have I not dealt with it? Sorry, cos. You did talk about the original question; I guess I just forgot to post replying to it. My posts in this topic have been kinda long :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > What?? Or if they can’t then perhaps the whole concept of Hell and how it relates to man relationship with God, needs to be rethought. It doesn’t mean God is not benevolent. True. If you don’t believe in Hell, or the concept of a place where the “bad people” go, then God can be benevolent. > [@](#): > > The question that remains open for me is are there souls who will not choose love and truth even after coming to full awareness of it. Some believe all will eventually wake up. So if there are these souls, what happens to them?They die, and then…what? > [@](#): > > Or, are you saying that a concept of a benevolent God and a concept of Hell cannot coexist in the same belief system without one contradicting the other? Yes, exactly; you’ve put it much better than I did. That, in a nutshell, is my arguement. And I don’t mean just “pointy-fork wielding demons and fire” Hell, but I use the term to encompass all concepts of “I reject the love of God for some reason, thus _this_ happens to me”. > [@dotchan](#): > > Yeah, the “God works in mysterious ways” is a cheap dodge, but if God really were a petty dictator who puts people into heaven or hell basen on his own whims, what would we be able to do about it? Absolutely nothing. Other than playing by the rules, which have been set down by someone all-powerful who will not change his mind, we’ve got no hope. And, while I agree that the Christian doctrine of “love thy neighbour”, the main point, is a worthy and noble cause, that still doesn’t change that it’s being set out by a dictatorial deity. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/47 "2005-10-23T19:27:17Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I can’t remember where I’ve heard it, but there’s a story that says when we die, we go to see God and he looks at us, with all of our graces and all of our flaws. He sees you entirely, and you have to stand there and (probably, we’re not all good) feel shame in a lot of the stuff we’ve done. And then he forgives us. > > Seems good to me; appropriate punishment for murderers etc, appropriate benevolence for lovely nice people. The only thing we have to face would be ourselves, which, really, is probably the fairest judgement possible. > > Still doesn’t mean I believe in him though 😛 > … > > I don’t. In fact, i’d imagine that for different people they’d have different priorities in terms of suffering. A believer in God who’s done wrong will probably feel worse in the “eternal anguish in God’s presence” one, for example. But in all of these cases, look at what you’ve written; It’s eternal. Forever. The human mind can’t hope to get to grips with the concept of “infinity” and yet that is how long we will be punished for. Not only that, but there is no salvation; once you’re there, you’re there for good, mate. > > This assumes God/JC are just. I see no proof they are; that’s what this debate is about, the actions that they undertake after we die do not seem either just or benovolent. And if we’re asked to believe in someone’s justness when they have little, well, i’m afraid i’m not going to. So off to Hell with me. > > Ok, here, I think, is where we get to the crux of the matter; I don’t believe these people deserve eternal punishment. I believe they deserve incredibly harsh punishments, yes. I think it would be just to send them to Hell for a **period of time** , yes. But not forever, and not with no chance of salvation. > > Aha! So there IS salvation for all! That’s excel…oh, no, wait, we get one chance. When we die. And **no chance** after that; once we’re “sentenced” or “placed appropriately” then that’s it. No more chances to repent, placed in horrible pain (of some sort) for eternity. > > I’d like to make an analogy, if I may; > > Say we live in a world where there is only one ruler. By all accounts, he’s a lovely guy. If he knows something is going wrong, he will try to help that person personally. He is willing to sacrifice himself in order to save his people, because he just loves them that damn much. All in all, a perfect ruler. > > Except that you have no chance of removing him from power, or escaping him; he’s a dictator, benevolent though he may be. And the punishment for all crimes is the hanging of you and your family, and everyone you know. Kill someone? Hanging. Steal a loaf of bread for your hungry family? Hanging. Kill someone accidentally in self-defense? Hanging. Molest a child? Hanging. > > Now, i’m sure you’d agree that those examples, hanging is a way over the mark punishment; even for murder or child molesting, everyone you know as well as you will be killed. > > My point is this; Hell is, in all cases, a punishment that is a huge overreaction. It is not a benevolent action, and it is not in keeping with the notion of a “benovolent” God. That’s assuming Hell means one thing for all people- and that Hell is irrevocably eternal. Various people will experience various “hells”, which is, I think, why there are a variety of possible Biblical interpretations of Hell. Btw, “Hell” is not a Biblical word- there is the Hebrew Sheol & Greek Hades, which seem to be a holding cell, Gehenna/the Lake of Fire, which is the Final Punishment for the Condemned, and Tartarus, the prison of the fallen angels. Hanging is a disproportionate punishment for murder or child molesting? Not to me! I don’t know that only one gets one last chance after death, there may be many who don’t even get one last chance as they blew a myriad of chances on Earth. However, I do believe that God will reconcile with any being that wants reconciliation. The Gehenna Fire may be a painful process of coming to accept Christ & God, no matter how long it takes. Then again, if a person persists in hatred/defiance to God, the glories of Heaven will seem but a mocking Hellish agony to him. It’s not what God does to punish that person; it’s what that person experiences because he will not open to God’s Grace. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/48 "2005-10-23T20:24:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You have the market cornered on reincarnation theory? There are many different belief systems which use cyclic existance. Some contend as one ‘advances’ to advance further you need more challenges in one’s life, which generally means a harder life. Which reincarnation theory would that be specifically? Any cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/49 "2005-10-23T20:47:55Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] > [@](#): > > So if there are these souls, what happens to them?They die, and then…what? I don’t know. According to the Myth/metaphor they have to go away from God because that’s what they’ve chosen. Not as punishment but because it would be to painful to remain in the light after choosing the darkness. I tend to think all eventually wake up. I mean hey, it’s eternity, what else you got to do? > [@](#): > > Yes, exactly; you’ve put it much better than I did. That, in a nutshell, is my arguement. And I don’t mean just “pointy-fork wielding demons and fire” Hell, but I use the term to encompass all concepts of “I reject the love of God for some reason, thus _this_ happens to me”. I agree with you. It never seemed compatible to a benevolent loving God to me either. I think what some people are saying is that it’s not so much a matter of disobeying the rules, or rejecting the love of God in a “now you’ve made God mad” sense. It’s more along the lines of rejecting love and truth as the path to follow, and bearing the consequences of those choices. Still, to me eternal damnation because you’ve used up all your chances doesn’t make sense to me. It makes more sense that eventually {over several lifetimes} we’ll begin to wake up and choose love and truth consistantly. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/50 "2005-10-23T23:15:47Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Hanging is a disproportionate punishment for murder or child molesting? Not to me! I agree. If you’d read what I said, however: > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > And the punishment for all crimes is the hanging of you **and your family, and everyone you know**. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > even for murder or child molesting, **everyone you know as well as you** will be killed. Just you being hung? Alright. I don’t believe in the death penalty, but I can see how they would deserve it. But not their friends and family; that’s my point, it’s a disproportionate response. As is Hell for “sinners”. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t know. According to the Myth/metaphor they have to go away from God because that’s what they’ve chosen. Not as punishment but because it would be to painful to remain in the light after choosing the darkness. I tend to think all eventually wake up. I mean hey, it’s eternity, what else you got to do? In many belief systems, there’s nothing you can do; once you’re there, you’re stuck. Hence the whole “no salvation” part. But if that isn’t part of your own belief system, fair enough. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I agree with you. It never seemed compatible to a benevolent loving God to me either. I think what some people are saying is that it’s not so much a matter of disobeying the rules, or rejecting the love of God in a “now you’ve made God mad” sense. It’s more along the lines of rejecting love and truth as the path to follow, and bearing the consequences of those choices. Still, to me eternal damnation because you’ve used up all your chances doesn’t make sense to me. It makes more sense that eventually {over several lifetimes} we’ll begin to wake up and choose love and truth consistantly. Ok. Under that belief system, be it right, I believe God can be benevolent. Like you said, eternal damnation doesn’t really make sense. Your system would seem to be a benevolent one; I don’t agree with you, and I doubt that’s what will happen, but I don’t think i’d be complaining if it did. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/51 "2005-10-23T23:16:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Which reincarnation theory would that be specifically? Any cite for that? I am still waiting of proof that you have cornered the market on reincarnation. But yes I do: [http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation2.html](http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation2.html) and [http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation.html](http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation.html) gives a overview of some of the reincarnation theories. Now please tell me why you think you are the only one who decides on which reincarnation theory is the only one. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/52 "2005-10-24T01:27:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I am still waiting of proof that you have cornered the market on reincarnation. But yes I do: > > [Comparative Religion - Reincarnation and cosmic justice](http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation2.html) > > and > [Comparative Religion - Reincarnation in world religions](http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation.html) > gives a overview of some of the reincarnation theories. > > Now please tell me why you think you are the only one who decides on which reincarnation theory is the only one. I freely admit that I am not any kind of expert on the different teachings of reincarnation among the religions that teach reincarnation. Your representation of reincarnation may indeed be close to some teachings, but none that I’ve seen. specifically > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **kanicbird** > There are many belief systems, usually involving cyclic existence (reincarnation), when one tried to purify ones soul to reach nirvana (heaven), this is usually done by leading harder and harder lives till you have paid for all your transgressions. Since we can’t live perfect lives, it would seem that this process would be unending, and progressively harder/miserable - which except for hope, sounds very much like a view of hell. You imply that _most_ reincarnation belief systems are as you describe them. In my limited study I haven’t found any that teach we lead harder and harder lives until we’ve paid for our “sins” The link you provided is hardly a credible presentation of evidence since it appears to be a Christian apologist site for the purpose of discrediting Reincarnation. I noticed they didn’t mentionn that reincarnation was taught by Judism and early Christianity. If I was trying to make a point about what Christianity taught would you think an anti Christian web site to be reasonable unbiased credible evidence? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/53 "2005-10-26T11:26:44Z")
I don’t know where the idea came from that one goes to Heaven or Hell came from after death, but if one believes in the Genesis account, the punishment for sin was death, there was no mention of loss of a soul or a reward in a heaven. This idea came much later. I think after people began to see that both good and bad people died, they must have decided that the good went to a Heaven and the Bad went to Hell a place of eternal torment They then decide that animals died and since they regarded man as a higher being, that man had a soul, and animals and plants didn’t. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/54 "2005-10-26T21:19:52Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I’m pretty sure it’s the same deal in Judaism, and I believe also in Islam, but I don’t know enough about either to say it with great confidence. Not in Judaism. Judaism is very much focused on doing what’s right in this world, rather than on the world-to-come, so there isn’t really one accepted answer to what happens after death. There are a lot of different Jewish opinions on the afterlife. Some, and not just sixties-liberal Jews like me, believe in reincarnation (there are Hasidic stories of reincarnation, for instance in the book _Jewish Tales of Reincarnation_). There is a Jewish hell, called Gehenna, but people don’t stay there for more than a year. In fact, there is a custom of saying the Mourner’s Kaddish (the prayer said by Jewish mourners) for your parents for eleven months, rather than one year, because the maximum sentence in Gehenna for the most evil people is twelve months, and you don’t want to imply that your mother or father was evil enough to be sent to Gehenna for the full twelve months ;j The majority view in Judaism since the time of the Talmud (completed about 5th century AD) has been that the righteous of all nations have a place in [Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come](http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm) . So no, we don’t believe that non-Jews automatically go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/55 "2005-10-26T21:46:08Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > A murderer and child rapist, who, at the end of their life, meets God and thus repents. Judaism has a rather interesting take on this one. To repent of a sin that has harmed other people, you have to seek forgiveness from _the people you harmed_, not just from God. The process of seeking forgiveness from other people should include restitution for any damages you’ve caused them, if at all possible. Just being sorry and praying to God to forgive you isn’t enough. God can only forgive you for sins between you and God, not sins between you and another person. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/56 "2005-10-26T22:23:46Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > Not in Judaism. Apologies. I wasn’t really sure in the first place; my ignorance has been fought 😛 > [@](#): > > Judaism has a rather interesting take on this one. > > To repent of a sin that has harmed other people, you have to seek forgiveness from the people you harmed, not just from God. The process of seeking forgiveness from other people should include restitution for any damages you’ve caused them, if at all possible. > > Just being sorry and praying to God to forgive you isn’t enough. God can only forgive you for sins between you and God, not sins between you and another person. This is an interesting thought; it should be just, because it’d be harder to gain forgiveness for the more heinous crimes. And saving possibly all (not just Jews) does sound like the actions of a benevolent god. There do seem to be a wide range of opinions on what happens, though, like you said. I’d say that a God of your particular belief could be both just and benevolent, then. Just depends on how bad Gehenna is, really. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/57 "2005-10-26T23:26:54Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Apologies. I wasn’t really sure in the first place; my ignorance has been fought 😛 That was the point. > [@](#): > > I’d say that a God of your particular belief could be both just and benevolent, then. Just depends on how bad Gehenna is, really. And the Jewish answer on how bad Gehenna is: “Nobody knows”. We don’t go in for fire-and-brimstone sermons with elaborate speculations on what Gehenna is like. There are some stories in _Jewish Tales of Reincarnation_ of the recently deceased being offered the choice between Gehenna or another incarnation on Earth to atone for their sins. Most of them actually choose Gehenna, IIRC- it might be hellish, but you can’t accumulate any more sins there, and it’s over in a year at most, after which you go to Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden, or the Jewish Heaven). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/58 "2005-10-27T00:25:33Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > Not in Judaism. > > Judaism is very much focused on doing what’s right in this world, rather than on the world-to-come, so there isn’t really one accepted answer to what happens after death. There are a lot of different Jewish opinions on the afterlife. Some, and not just sixties-liberal Jews like me, believe in reincarnation (there are Hasidic stories of reincarnation, for instance in the book _Jewish Tales of Reincarnation_). > > There is a Jewish hell, called Gehenna, but people don’t stay there for more than a year. In fact, there is a custom of saying the Mourner’s Kaddish (the prayer said by Jewish mourners) for your parents for eleven months, rather than one year, because the maximum sentence in Gehenna for the most evil people is twelve months, and you don’t want to imply that your mother or father was evil enough to be sent to Gehenna for the full twelve months ;j > > The majority view in Judaism since the time of the Talmud (completed about 5th century AD) has been that the righteous of all nations have a place in [Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come](http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm) . So no, we don’t believe that non-Jews automatically go to hell. Pretty interesting. I learned something, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/59 "2005-10-27T16:45:10Z")
Incidentally, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Chinese mythology (at least some varieties of each) also have non-eternal hells. [Here’s](http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/chinese-mythology.php?deity=FENG-DU) an interesting description of hell, or Feng Du, in Chinese mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344/60 "2005-11-01T21:55:02Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Anyway, my point is this; you commit a crime against God, you go to Hell. Which…well, it seems kinda…harsh. It’s just one of many things that point out the idiocy of an organized religion of any kind. For example, let’s take the Ten Commandments. If we pull the religous gibberish out of them, what’s left is a pretty good set of guidelines for living together in a harmonious society. I try to live a life that follows those guidelines: I don’t lie, I don’t steal, I don’t murder, I don’t covet my neighbor’s wife’s ass, etc. But because I don’t follow number one on the list: “I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.”, then according to Christianity, I’m gonna fry for eternity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eternal-damnation-eep/327344.md?page=2)