# Ethanol from Hemp? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2007, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070 "2007-01-30T03:12:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/21 "2007-01-30T10:49:31Z")
[http://www.hemptrade.ca/en/public/other-uses.ihtml](http://www.hemptrade.ca/en/public/other-uses.ihtml) [http://www.thehia.org/faqs/faq7.htm](http://www.thehia.org/faqs/faq7.htm) ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/22 "2007-01-30T10:53:21Z")
You still havent read the articles have you. It quite well establishes that in order to claim that ethanol is inefficent you have to factor into the equasion the energy from the sun and earth. On the other hand you have to completely ignore the fact that the crude that you are pumping from the ground also used free energy from the sun to be produced. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/23 "2007-01-30T11:02:53Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] Yes, of course, the sugar is extracted first. I would think that would always be true. It’s the pulp that contains the starch used for ethanol, I thought. [/QUOTE] The sugar could also be put to use for ethanol production though - I wonder how efficient that would be… (still not enough, I expect). ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/24 "2007-01-30T11:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=Blake] What the hell are you on about? The financial costs are totally irrelevant to everything Chronos, Myself and AuntiPam posted. We are discussing the _energetic_ costs. The simple fact is that to produce one joule of ethanol enegry it takes more than one joule of energy input in the form of fertilisers, transport, refining, irrigation, cultivation, storage etc That is because nobody but you has mentioned the financial cost. You don’t seem to understand that financial cost and energetic cost are not the same. [/QUOTE] Check this out [http://www.refineryreform.org/spotlight\_yuma\_az.html](http://www.refineryreform.org/spotlight_yuma_az.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/25 "2007-01-30T11:44:43Z")
[QUOTE=justwannano] On the other hand you have to completely ignore the fact that the crude that you are pumping from the ground also used free energy from the sun to be produced. [/QUOTE] Say that one liter of oil could produce one joule of energy. We’ll also say that one liter of ethanol can produce one joule of energy. And further, we’ll say that it takes 1.1 liters of oil to create 1.0 liters of ethanol. There is no further math that needs to be done. The sun and earth have nothing to do with the issue unless you can resolve the above. So long as it takes more oil to create less ethanol, it is impossible for ethanol to be more efficient to produce. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/26 "2007-01-30T11:48:35Z")
Of course nobody should be (and nobody _is_) arguing that it is inevitable that producing x amount of ethanol will always use x+n amount of fossil fuels - it just happens to be that way at the moment with our current level of technology for industrial-scale production. It is, of course, entirely possible to produce ethanol without using _any_ fossil fuels at all. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/27 "2007-01-30T13:26:21Z")
My knowledge of biology is a little raddled through 35 years of disuse, but surely both ethanol and methanol are just different combinations of carbon and oxygen. Starches are broken down to sucrose by enzymes (suck a bit of bread to demonstrate) Cellulose can be converted to sucrose by ruminants ( cows ) Ethanol and methanol are just alcohols that (can be) excreted by certain yeasts. The only really interesting thing is photosynthesis that grabs CO2 and ultraviolet, then juggles it around into something that is potential food for yeast. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/28 "2007-01-30T15:30:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Say that one liter of oil could produce one joule of energy. We’ll also say that one liter of ethanol can produce one joule of energy. And further, we’ll say that it takes 1.1 liters of oil to create 1.0 liters of ethanol. There is no further math that needs to be done. The sun and earth have nothing to do with the issue unless you can resolve the above. So long as it takes more oil to create less ethanol, it is impossible for ethanol to be more efficient to produce. [/QUOTE] It might indeed take 1.1 liter of oil to produce 1 liter of ethanol. But the oil needs to be processed to make it a useable fuel before your comparison means anything. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/29 "2007-01-30T15:38:29Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] The only really interesting thing is photosynthesis that grabs CO2 and ultraviolet, then juggles it around into something that is potential food for yeast. [/QUOTE] Any part of the process could be described as ‘interesting’, or alternatively, none of it, for example, it’s interesting that yeast happens to excrete a volatile substance that can be used as combustible fuel. ‘Interesting’ isn’t an objective term ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/30 "2007-01-30T16:27:37Z")
[QUOTE=justwannano] It might indeed take 1.1 liter of oil to produce 1 liter of ethanol. But the oil needs to be processed to make it a useable fuel before your comparison means anything. [/QUOTE] Yes, which is why I specified how much energy can be gotten from each. 1 liter of oil can produce 1 joule of energy. If there are intermediary steps where the oil is processed down to a half-liter of gasoline, then the power output of that half-liter is 1 joule. All we need to know for the example though is that 1 liter of oil = 1 joule of energy in end result. If it takes 1.1 joules to create 1 joule of energy, you’re just burning power. In total effect, you would essentially just be increasing the rate at which oil is consumed. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/31 "2007-01-30T17:23:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Methanol is toxic, doesn’t burn very well in engines and you get relatively little of it in return for the input material. Apart from the energy cost discussion, I’d like to pick a small nit here. Methanol burns quite well in engines - Indy racers have been using it for years (since the 60’s). They have recently started using part ethanol and are going to pure ethanol partially for promotional/political reasons. In terms of performance, methanol and ethanol should be pretty close. Which says nothing about the feasibility of commercial methanol production for use as a fuel, of course. There are a few minority opinions out there that it’s the way to go, but the push seems to be for ethanol. The wiki article on methanol as a fuel: > **[Methanol fuel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_fuel)** > > Methanol fuel is an alternative biofuel for internal combustion and other engines, either in combination with gasoline or independently. Methanol (CH3OH) is less expensive to sustainably produce than ethanol fuel, although it is more toxic than ethanol and has a lower energy density than gasoline. Methanol is safer for the environment than gasoline, is an anti-freeze agent, prevents dirt and grime buildup within the engine, has a higher ignition temperature and can withstand compression equivale... It IS more toxic than ethanol, but probably not as toxic as gasoline, and you could argue that methanol would be an environmental improvement. Ethanol still sounds like a better candidate. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/32 "2007-01-30T17:33:43Z")
[QUOTE=Mangosteen] Instead hemp contains large amounts of cellulose, which produces methanol (wood alcohol) when fermented. [/QUOTE] My understanding is that methanol is chemically produced, and not fermented. [QUOTE=yabob] It IS more toxic than ethanol, but probably not as toxic as gasoline, and you could argue that methanol would be an environmental improvement. Ethanol still sounds like a better candidate. [/QUOTE] A better candidate then either seems to be butanol which seems to have better characteristics then ethanol or methanol. > [@](#): > > It is in several ways more similar to gasoline than ethanol is. Butanol has been demonstrated to work in some vehicles designed for use with gasoline without any modification. It can be produced from biomass as well as fossil fuels. > **[Butanol fuel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel)** > > Butanol may be used as a fuel in an internal combustion engine. It is more similar to gasoline than it is to ethanol. A C4-hydrocarbon, butanol is a drop-in fuel and thus works in vehicles designed for use with gasoline without modification. > Both n-butanol and isobutanol have been studied as possible fuels. Both can be produced from biomass (as "biobutanol" ) as well as from fossil fuels (as "petrobutanol"). The chemical properties depend on the isomer (n-butanol or isobutanol), no Obtaining hig... ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/33 "2007-01-30T18:03:16Z")
I just want to throw out a couple bits of information here: 1: People seem to be assuming that ethanol is an energy-negative proposition, but in fact that has not been decisively proven. In particular a [DOE study](http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/net_energy_balance.html) suggests that ethanol is positive by a factor of 1.34 2: Even if you assume ethanol is energy neutral, nothing says the primary source has to be gasoline. Switching to an ethanol or hydrogen distribution system means that internal combustion engines are no longer married to oil as a primary energy source. Through a fully integrated grid, cars could indirectly run on some or all of nuclear fission, hydroelectric, coal, natural gas, wind, tidal, whatever. We would have some flexibility in choosing our primary energy source instead of saying “if we want cars we need oil, the end.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/34 "2007-01-30T18:28:39Z")
> [@](#): > > 2: Even if you assume ethanol is energy neutral, nothing says the primary source has to be gasoline. Switching to an ethanol or hydrogen distribution system means that internal combustion engines are no longer married to oil as a primary energy source. Through a fully integrated grid, cars could indirectly run on some or all of nuclear fission, hydroelectric, coal, natural gas, wind, tidal, whatever. We would have some flexibility in choosing our primary energy source instead of saying “if we want cars we need oil, the end.” Well, you still need some gasoline or the equivalent. The tractors and other farm machinery would need to run on some sort of volatile fuel, since you can’t really plug them into the electrical grid. And **Blake** already acknowledged, up in post #6, that ethanol production could be viewed as, effectively, a way to convert nuclear or other energy sources into something useable by cars. **justwannaknow** , ideally, in a long-term view, monetary costs probably could be used as a decent proxy for measuring energy costs. But in the short term, and in a non-ideal world, there are a lot of ways to juggle the accounting on monetary costs that make it difficult to tell what the net is. On the other hand, it’s a lot harder to juggle gallons of actual fuel that go into or out of a facility. That’s why I said that the best demonstration of corn ethanol’s viability (if it is indeed viable) would be a self-sufficient facility which did not import any oil, but did export fuel. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/35 "2007-01-30T18:42:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] Yes, which is why I specified how much energy can be gotten from each. 1 liter of oil can produce 1 joule of energy. If there are intermediary steps where the oil is processed down to a half-liter of gasoline, then the power output of that half-liter is 1 joule. All we need to know for the example though is that 1 liter of oil = 1 joule of energy in end result. If it takes 1.1 joules to create 1 joule of energy, you’re just burning power. In total effect, you would essentially just be increasing the rate at which oil is consumed. [/QUOTE] So does that mean that if one liter of falling water will produce 1 juole of energy then our energy problems are over? ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/36 "2007-01-30T18:51:21Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] . **justwannaknow** , ideally, in a long-term view, monetary costs probably could be used as a decent proxy for measuring energy costs. But in the short term, and in a non-ideal world, there are a lot of ways to juggle the accounting on monetary costs that make it difficult to tell what the net is. On the other hand, it’s a lot harder to juggle gallons of actual fuel that go into or out of a facility. That’s why I said that the best demonstration of corn ethanol’s viability (if it is indeed viable) would be a self-sufficient facility which did not import any oil, but did export fuel. [/QUOTE] True. Thats why back in the olden days I tried to get the idea across that the true cost of using fossil fuel was not being considered. The distribution system includes tanker ships pipelines etc and the fact that no new petro processing plants were being built. Its still not factored in. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/37 "2007-01-30T19:09:18Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Well, you still need some gasoline or the equivalent. The tractors and other farm machinery would need to run on some sort of volatile fuel, since you can’t really plug them into the electrical grid. And **Blake** already acknowledged, up in post #6, that ethanol production could be viewed as, effectively, a way to convert nuclear or other energy sources into something useable by cars. [/QUOTE] I’m guessing that I shouldn’t need to point out that this nuclear/alternative energy produced ethanol could then be used in tractors? I have no idea if any such tractors exist at the moment, but they should be possible. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/38 "2007-01-30T19:19:40Z")
[QUOTE=justwannano] So does that mean that if one liter of falling water will produce 1 juole of energy then our energy problems are over? [/QUOTE] Looking purely at the energy costs, yes; however, we then have to move on to the second step which compares how much a power generating plant costs to build with how much the energy it produces can be sold for. There was a thread a couple years ago about a proposal to build huge convection-driven turbines (huge as in, a chimney a mile tall). Although technologically possible, they would cost more in resources and energy to build and maintain than they would ever recoup in energy sold, even though the specific cost to generate any of the electricity was nil. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/39 "2007-01-30T19:22:32Z")
The initial equipment cost is higher to make energy from biomass than the simpler distillation of corn or sugar cane. However, the cost of growing mixed prairie grasses is much lower. With corn, you need several expensive passes with farm machines; one or two to plow, one to plant, one to fertilize, one to kill the bugs, one to kill the weeds, and finally another to harvest. Mixed prairie grasses need to be planted once. They’re perennial. They’ll grow in poor soil. They grew wild here for centuries before we plowed it up to grow corn and wheat. There’s no need for herbicides, because weeds make good biomass, too. If bugs attack one kind of grass, the rest will survive. You need to make one pass in the late summer or early fall to harvest the tall grass. If hemp were used as part of the mix, it would be no better or worse than the other plants. Hemp is a vigorous, sturdy plant. Yes, dope growers use lots of fertilizer, but hemp will grow without it. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070/40 "2007-01-30T19:49:40Z")
[QUOTE=Blake] The simple fact is that to produce one joule of ethanol enegry it takes more than one joule of energy input in the form of fertilisers, transport, refining, irrigation, cultivation, storage etc [/quote] Do you have a cite for that? Because there was a thread about this awhile back where many people were relying on a rather dubious paper that was published a decade or so ago, that made a lot of bad assumptions based on data that is now out of date. I remember one of the things that bothered me about the one study that all ethanol critics seemed to be relying on was that it factored in, among many other things, the cost of _building_ facilities to process the ethanol. Well if we made the assumption that we were starting from scratch with absolutely no infrastructure in place, oil would be negative-efficient as well. If people are looking for a magic bullet that’s going to be cheap energy with little cost to produce, right out of the gate, with no R&D necessary, then everything is going to look disappointing. As Brain Wreck pointed out, there are newer studies that suggest a positive ratio is attainable. Sorry for the sidetrack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-from-hemp/390070.md?page=3)