# Ethanol gets boondoggler. Biomass for electricity generation efficienter. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745 "2009-05-08T13:39:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/1 "2009-05-08T13:39:44Z")
Some who have participated in past transportation related threads may have heard me posit this before: using biomass to produce ethanol may have its advantages but burning it to produce electricity would be more efficient. Now comes [a study](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/study-finds-bioelectricity-better-option-than-liquid-biofuels-for-transportation-output-and-ghg-emis.html#more) supporting my claim. > [@](#): > > The study by University of California, Merced, Assistant Professor Elliott Campbell along with Christopher Field of the Carnegie Institution’s Department of Global Ecology and David Lobell of Stanford University, found that bioelectricity produces an average 81% more transportation kilometers and 108% more emissions offsets per unit area cropland than cellulosic ethanol. A paper on the work appeared in the 8 May issue of the journal Science. The _Science_ article pdf is, I think behind a subscription wall, but points out that “electricity produced from biomass is a near term renewable resource that can be implemented with biomass boilers, Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) power plants, or co-combustion with coal” Carbon sequestration, if applied, would be gravy. (Not mentioned in the article is the potential for biochar to sequester carbon longterm as well) Now please note, I recognize that currently our transportation infrastructure is ill suited for using pure BEVs for long distance transport and that that fact, combined with the current costs of batteries make pure BEVs as no more ready to take over fueling all our transportation needs than cellulosic ethanol is. There is a place for liquid fuel and cellulosic ethanol is a top possibility for that need. But overall using biomass for electricity generation is a better choice and, well, readier. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/2 "2009-05-08T20:40:14Z")
While I hate to be the only responder to my own op some additional bits of information are of note. The problem with using bioenergy crops like switchgrass for electricity generation (as opposed to waste biomass in the biochar model) is competing with coal on a cost basis. Optimistic estimates for [switchgrass:](http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/streeter/2003report/Switchgrass.htm) > [@](#): > > total production costs of $30/ton for switchgrass biomass will be achievable by Great Plains producers with good establishment techniques on land that is of marginal value for row-crops. As we learn more about cost-effective establishment practices, many producers will be able to achieve this level of production cost efficiency. For biomass energy markets, transportation costs from farm to processing plants are likely to add another $10/ton for the average producer. [But](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14655692) > [@](#): > > A delivered cost of biomass below 15 dollars per ton is required for cofire to be competitive with existing coal-based generation. While biomass to electricity beats biomass to ethanol by a long shot, it cannot beat coal on a cost basis unless the other advantages of biomass use are monetized. As that same second cite continues - > [@](#): > > it can provide comparatively inexpensive control of CO2 emissions: we estimate that emissions reductions of 100 Mt-CO2/year (a 5% reduction in electric-sector emissions) can be achieved at 25 +/- 20 dollars/tC. The 2-3 year time horizon for deployment–compared with 10-20 years for other CO2 mitigation options–makes cofiring particularly attractive. And that I believe does not include the biochar option. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/3 "2009-05-08T21:05:00Z")
Is any of this really surprising? The requirement for corn ethanol is gasoline has nothing to do with reducing pollution, increasing efficiency, or establishing energy independence; many studies have shown that more energy goes into producing ethanol than comes out of it. The only reason why the requirement exists is to help rich agricultural corporations get even richer. That’s why it was required in states where those corporations were powerful, such as Wisconsin and Illinois, several years before it was required at the national level. For as long as large corporations rule America, there will not be any progress towards greener, more efficient energy in this country. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/4 "2009-05-09T04:49:36Z")
The requirement for corn ethanol is gasoline does nothing to reduce overall pollution, but I thought it reduced it where the cars burned it. In other words, the pollution was released in the corn fields and not city streets. I know of no other advantage, except as you say to make money for big farm corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/5 "2009-05-09T08:36:50Z")
I don’t think the nonsensical title is helping the thread get replies. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/6 "2009-05-09T21:29:12Z")
Hey, _you_ opened it up! But yeah, a bit too cute I guess. Or people just feel there is not too much to debate on the subject. Ah well. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/7 "2009-05-09T23:56:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But yeah, a bit too cute I guess. Or people just feel there is not too much to debate on the subject. > > Ah well. I would, but I’d much rather read the original article prior to commenting, and even though I have paid access to the Science journals, I somehow cannot download the article. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/8 "2009-05-10T00:30:55Z")
Several years ago when ethanol from corn became a big deal, I was responsible for buying commodities for use in animal feed production. The effect on the price of corn by creating a new market was huge. Feed manufacturers tried reformulating the diets using other grains and products, which caused new demand, and price increases for those. Driving up the prices for not just corn based feeds and human food, but many unrelated foods. Well meaning people jumped on the band wagon and made ethanol in gas a requirement. The government subsidized production of ethanol and tax credits for manufacturing plant construction. The problem with using corn is that it is not something just laying around looking for a good use. All the corn was already being used. It’s not like we are making an oil substitute out of a waste product. Diverting a large amount to non-feed/food uses is hard on developing countries that buy our US exported corn. The price is artificially inflated beyond what it should be. And this is very regressive, the burden for these price increases fall on the backs of the poor. And government subsidized ethanol is a huge windfall for large agri-business’. Corn also takes a huge amount of fuel, water and land to produce. It sounded like a good idea and now that we have had several years to see the results, it no longer seems desireable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/9 "2009-05-10T00:39:26Z")
I concur, with the full weight of my expertise behind it. Corn just ain’t it. I remain optimistic. I am firmly convinced that bio-engineering is the _tsunami_ of the future, and we’ve barely gotten our feet wet. I lean so strongly towards bio-energy mostly because it seems so obvious that the Goddess has already figured out how to convert the suns energy about a thousand different ways, and the needle of cheap, clean energy lies in that haystack. Bio-energy, brothers and sisters, pals and gals, the Green Flame of Progress that…what?..oh, my time’s up?..I didn’t know about any time…yes, well, OK, don’t want to be pushy, or anything… ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethanol-gets-boondoggler-biomass-for-electricity-generation-efficienter/495745/10 "2009-05-10T01:02:48Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Hey, _you_ opened it up! > > But yeah, a bit too cute I guess. Or people just feel there is not too much to debate on the subject. > > Ah well. Well, I _think_ you meant to say **Boondogglier** , as in more boondoggley. As it reads it sounds like you are saying that Ethanol gained a person who boondoggles. I opened the thread just to figure out how that made any grammatical sense.