# Ethical Considerations of Jaywalking **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340 "2009-03-05T00:27:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/21 "2009-03-06T14:34:37Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > No, that signal means don’t start walking across if you haven’t already. My problem is with those that start walking across when it’s already flashing, meanwhile there are 10 cars behind me trying to turn right during rush hour and you’re holding up traffic. True, but once a pedestrian has begun walking, he has every right to still be in the crosswalk when the hand starts flashing. Your right to turn right on red does not trump his right to safely get to the other side. Having said that, I’ll sometimes start crossing during the flashing hand, but only if I know the intersection well, and even then I make sure to cross as quickly as possible. ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/22 "2009-03-06T15:01:09Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > No, that signal means don’t start walking across if you haven’t already. My problem is with those that start walking across when it’s already flashing, meanwhile there are 10 cars behind me trying to turn right during rush hour and you’re holding up traffic. How long could this pedestrian have possibly delayed you? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/23 "2009-03-06T15:46:27Z")
I would feel absolutely zero guilt if I jaywalked, and some idiot behind me decided to follow without looking and got creamed by a passing car. I would feel bad for him, and call 911 and make sure he got medical care and all that, but guilt? No way. I am not responsible for making sure that whatever I do is safe if repeated by any random dipshit who happens to be watching. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/24 "2009-03-06T15:49:01Z")
> [@unstrung](#): > > How long could this pedestrian have possibly delayed you? When that flashing hand is the only time vehicles can turn, and it’s rush hour, I’m going to get pissed off. Blocking rush hour traffic because you can’t wait 1 minute until it turns to walk again is rude. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/25 "2009-03-06T15:50:04Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > True, but once a pedestrian has begun walking, he has every right to still be in the crosswalk when the hand starts flashing. Your right to turn right on red does not trump his right to safely get to the other side. I agree, and that’s fine. I never said anything about those already in the crosswalk, just those that start to cross when the sign says **Do Not Start Crossing**. ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/26 "2009-03-06T16:23:04Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > When that flashing hand is the only time vehicles can turn, and it’s rush hour, I’m going to get pissed off. Blocking rush hour traffic because you can’t wait 1 minute until it turns to walk again is rude. I have never in my life seen an intersection where the ONLY time one can turn right is during the flashing hand. But even assuming that’s the case, you also only have to wait 1 minute until it flashes again, so that’s kind of a wash, if you ask me… ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/27 "2009-03-06T16:30:54Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > When that flashing hand is the only time vehicles can turn, and it’s rush hour, I’m going to get pissed off. Blocking rush hour traffic because you can’t wait 1 minute until it turns to walk again is rude. FWIW, I rarely cross a street where the wait between cycles is 1 minute. What, do you live in Instantaneous World or something? (I was at an intersection the other night where I had to go catty-corner. I swear it took me 5 minutes. Pretty sucky when you’re not even sure that catty-corner is where you want to be.) ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/28 "2009-03-06T16:47:34Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > When that flashing hand is the only time vehicles can turn, and it’s rush hour, I’m going to get pissed off. Blocking rush hour traffic because you can’t wait 1 minute until it turns to walk again is rude. Well, what if the pedestrian is also in a hurry to get home in rush hour? Why is your minute more valuable than his minute? Actually, why is your _10 seconds_ more valuable than his minute? There is no way to resolve this. You’re both in a hurry and you both value your time more than each other’s, so you’re both going to try to beat each other across the crosswalk, and whine when you come out on the losing side. When I’m a pedestrian, I complain about the damn drivers zipping along the street I want to cross - and when I’m a driver, I complain about the damn pedestrians who have the _gall_ to cross the street in front of me. ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/29 "2009-03-06T18:14:11Z")
You aren’t getting it. If pedestrians are always crossing when they shouldn’t be, NO ONE can turn. Not then, not when they’re trying to turn on a red (rush hour, remember), not when pedestrians have the walk signal. There is a brief 10 to 15 second time when you can safely make a turn, and then you can’t because the pedestrian runs out into the sidewalk to try and make the light. Why is THIER time any more important then mine, and the line of cars behind me trying to make a turn? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/30 "2009-03-06T18:29:17Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > You aren’t getting it. If pedestrians are always crossing when they shouldn’t be, NO ONE can turn. Not then, not when they’re trying to turn on a red (rush hour, remember), not when pedestrians have the walk signal. There is a brief 10 to 15 second time when you can safely make a turn, and then you can’t because the pedestrian runs out into the sidewalk to try and make the light. > > Why is THIER time any more important then mine, and the line of cars behind me trying to make a turn? BINGO. If your walking when you WANT to rather than when its your allotted time/turn, don get pissed when drivers decide to drive through the crosswalk on a red light because their time is valuable too! Wait your fracking turn like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/31 "2009-03-06T18:32:27Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > You aren’t getting it. If pedestrians are always crossing when they shouldn’t be, NO ONE can turn. Not then, not when they’re trying to turn on a red (rush hour, remember), not when pedestrians have the walk signal. There is a brief 10 to 15 second time when you can safely make a turn, and then you can’t because the pedestrian runs out into the sidewalk to try and make the light. > > Why is THIER time any more important then mine, and the line of cars behind me trying to make a turn? I guess I’m not getting the logistics of your intersection. Is there no point at which that lane has a good ol’ fashioned green light? ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/32 "2009-03-06T18:34:29Z")
> [@unstrung](#): > > I guess I’m not getting the logistics of your intersection. Is there no point at which that lane has a good ol’ fashioned green light? Yes, but at the same time there is a green light, the pedestrians have a walk signal. We do not have flashing green turn signals at most intersections downtown. ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/33 "2009-03-06T18:35:27Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > BINGO. > > If your walking when you WANT to rather than when its your allotted time/turn, don get pissed when drivers decide to drive through the crosswalk on a red light because their time is valuable too! > > Wait your fracking turn like everyone else. As an interesting aside… in Tampa, not only do drivers routinely ignore red lights, but when driving on divided roads, they often drive right over the median to turn around rather than go to the next open spot. A pedestrian-friendly city, it ain’t… ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/34 "2009-03-06T18:40:22Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > Yes, but at the same time there is a green light, the pedestrians have a walk signal. We do not have flashing green turn signals at most intersections downtown. Ok, now I better see the scenario you’re describing. As a practical matter, wouldn’t the best thing be to pull into the intersection (but not the crosswalk), so that when the light changes, you can just go? ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/35 "2009-03-06T18:44:27Z")
> [@unstrung](#): > > Ok, now I better see the scenario you’re describing. As a practical matter, wouldn’t the best thing be to pull into the intersection (but not the crosswalk), so that when the light changes, you can just go? Yes, that’s what most usually do, but it still holds up traffic. Instead of 5 or 6 vehicles getting through, it’s 1 or 2. It’s very frusterating. ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/36 "2009-03-06T18:49:37Z")
> [@EmAnJ](#): > > Yes, that’s what most usually do, but it still holds up traffic. Instead of 5 or 6 vehicles getting through, it’s 1 or 2. It’s very frusterating. I guess I can see your frustration. As a pedestrian, I’d be willing to make a deal - I’ll stop playing fast and loose with the flashing walk sign if y’all stop playing fast and loose with the yellow lights 😉 ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/37 "2009-03-06T19:00:01Z")
Deal! ---
**Author:** ![unstrung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a698b9/32.png) [@unstrung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unstrung)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/38 "2009-03-06T19:14:14Z")
Splendid! Next time you’re driving in Tampa or I’m walking in Calgary, things should go swimmingly 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340/39 "2009-03-06T19:18:15Z")
> [@unstrung](#): > > Ok, now I better see the scenario you’re describing. Me too. You’re talking about peds crossing the street where you want to be, not the street where you no longer want to be. Still, you talk about the flashing hand sign as free right-hand-turn time. It’s not. It’s the end of the walk cycle. The cross walk is still the exclusive property of pedestrians at that time. Free right-hand-turn time is usually indicated with a green arrow. (Or a green circle, of course.) It may help to understand the history of ROR. It didn’t used to exist. Sometime in the 70s, legislators recognized that in many cases, cars intending to turn right could safely do so on a red light, and so made that law. (Not all states did this at the same time. Kansas preceded New York by several years.) Still, it’s right on red **after stop, and after determining that it is safe to do so**. It’s a freebie. It’s a bonus. It’s never been enshrined as an unalienable right. Pedestrians still have the ROW during the flashing hand. Legal-types may now feel free to shred this post to tiny bits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-considerations-of-jaywalking/488340.md?page=1)