# Ethical Implications of Remaining Childless By Choice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653 "2009-12-17T17:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/101 "2009-12-18T14:38:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You could go out of your way to die in a public place where you would be noticed quickly - something like quietly poisoning yourself at a table in a nice restraunt. That way they’d find you before you stank up the place. I am not sure the restaurant owners would appreciate this. Might dampen trade a wee bit. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/102 "2009-12-18T14:49:11Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m a little surprised no one’s brought up [anti-natalism.](http://antinatalism.blogspot.com/) > > Choosing to live versus choosing to make a new life are very different things. It is the difference between betting your own money at the casino and betting someone else’s. > > Summary: Bringing someone from a state of non-existence into existence is committing a serious wrong because all the wrongs in a lifetime are in that single act. > > In short, it’d be better if a giant rock hit the earth and we all died in a fire. Otherwise humans may radiate out in space and time. Imagine the untold billions, maybe trillions of suffering souls extending forever into the future. It could be stopped here and now. > > That’s the philosophy, anyway. Obviously it won’t work because of the biological imperative. Fucking is very popular. I ususally think that most people have a grain of sense in what they say, even if I disagree on the whole with their opinion. Can’t say that about the anti-Natalists though. They seem to have some fundamental screw loose. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/103 "2009-12-18T15:50:11Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I am not sure the restaurant owners would appreciate this. Might dampen trade a wee bit. Are you _kidding_?!?!? I bet it would be better publicity than any they could pay for!😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/104 "2009-12-18T16:50:53Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > R\ When those people not wanting to have children tend to remove themselves from the common human gene pool, humanity as a whole will hopefully evolve towards a more loving species. All you can extrapolate character-wise from the people having children is that they are people who were either unwilling or unable to figure out reliable contraception. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/105 "2009-12-18T17:20:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You should consider the possibility that for some people not having kids is definitely of the heart. In my personal experience, which I believe is some revelation, I do accept this as a possibility, as we are all on our own journeys, but also very highly unlikely. I can accept that some people’s heart leading won’t lead to biological children, but we are all made in the likeness of God, who is the Father of us all. Inside each one of us the the desire to be a parent IMHO from that moment of creation. I believe spirituality (some religions) and evolution agrees in the primary role of humans, and thus the desire of the heart of the human, is to reproduce. While this reduces men to genitalia and women into ‘walking wombs’ this is only the evolutionary view, which sounds insulting and resisted by our modern society. Spiritually it is much different, it is IMHO GOD giving His very power of creating and raising life to us, as well as the ability to love that creation as He loves us. As such it is one of our highest callings a human can be called to do. > [@](#): > > Do we really want to pressure people to possibly make this mistake? No we want to free people to follow there hearts, having a child with one’s heart imprisoned, will just further the cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/106 "2009-12-18T17:36:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe spirituality (some religions) and evolution agrees in the primary role of humans, and thus the desire of the heart of the human, is to reproduce. While this reduces men to genitalia and women into ‘walking wombs’ this is only the evolutionary view, which sounds insulting and resisted by our modern society. Spiritually it is much different, it is IMHO GOD giving His very power of creating and raising life to us, as well as the ability to love that creation as He loves us. As such it is one of our highest callings a human can be called to do. We clearly have a genetic disposition to having children, since those who don’t won’t reproduce. However, there is still a lot of variation in the population, and if someone says that she truly does not want children, I believe her. In this society I don’t see why anyone would choose to close their hearts to children, so I suspect it is part of their makeup - just like wanting children seems to be part of yours and mine. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/107 "2009-12-18T19:23:29Z")
That’s something I wish I could get across to people who choose to have kids, **Voyager**. They say that they want kids, and I believe them because they have no reason to lie to me, but I have NEVER felt that desire to have a child - I don’t know what it feels like. I’m not suppressing an interest in kids - I simply don’t have any. I understand that it is a strong drive in them, and maybe that’s why they can’t seem to understand that other people are different from them. The part of me that enjoys science fiction also wonders if my genetic condition of not having any interest in children is going to become more and more common as we respond to increased population pressure (like the way rabbit females will resorb their fetuses if conditions are not good for giving birth). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/108 "2009-12-18T19:37:43Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > I simply don’t like kids. I never wanted to give up the independence having children would entail. My wife and I have the freedom to travel when and where we want, do what we want, not deal with the headaches of creating new humans. I personally never saw the appeal. Not to pick on you specifically, but this is something I hear the “childfree” say all the time. The two things are not exclusive. I’ve done all that already. I’ve travelled around the world for the last ten years. Now I want to raise children. I’ll do plenty more travelling in the future, with my children, when they reach the appropriate ages. It’s only a break of a few years. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/109 "2009-12-18T20:15:14Z")
Something I find kind of funny: So many times, I’ve heard sneering comments made about single parents, about how it’s just such a disaster that women have babies while not being married, how dreadful that is for the child. And at the same time, I have caught my share of flak from people because I didn’t choose to have children with my dying husband–as if being married when the children were conceived somehow would make me not a single parent _now_. So, is it really about the “single parent” thing, or is it just another way to attack the sluts? I didn’t have children because I couldn’t afford them, emotionally or financially. I never had a desire for children, but if the circumstances of my marriage had been different, I might have changed my mind. It’s possible. I feel like I owe money to society and the world. I don’t owe my genes or my uterus. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/110 "2009-12-18T20:25:52Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > That’s something I wish I could get across to people who choose to have kids, **Voyager**. They say that they want kids, and I believe them because they have no reason to lie to me, but I have NEVER felt that desire to have a child - I don’t know what it feels like. I’m not suppressing an interest in kids - I simply don’t have any. I understand that it is a strong drive in them, and maybe that’s why they can’t seem to understand that other people are different from them. I suppose it is similar to the reaction the celebate-by-choice get. Sex is such a big part of enjoying life for most people that it is simply hard to understand someone who _could_ have some but _chooses_ not to, absent something like a strong religious belief; that some people simply lack any sex drive. The thought that comes to many (I suppose inevitably) is that this is a lack the person must regret and want to correct. But from their point of view, sex is probably just icky and causes trouble - everyone (gay or straight, man or woman) pisses and moans about their horrible relationships, diseases, bad dates, etc. all caused by sex drive. The freedom to be without such entanglements must seem well worth it. ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/111 "2009-12-18T20:39:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Something I find kind of funny: > > So many times, I’ve heard sneering comments made about single parents, about how it’s just such a disaster that women have babies while not being married, how dreadful that is for the child. > > And at the same time, I have caught my share of flak from people because I didn’t choose to have children with my dying husband–as if being married when the children were conceived somehow would make me not a single parent _now_. > > So, is it really about the “single parent” thing, or is it just another way to attack the sluts? > > I didn’t have children because I couldn’t afford them, emotionally or financially. I never had a desire for children, but if the circumstances of my marriage had been different, I might have changed my mind. It’s possible. > > I feel like I owe money to society and the world. I don’t owe my genes or my uterus. Personally, I don’t have a problem with single parents _as long as they have made a conscious decision to parent, and are prepared to do so responsibly_. I have a problem with irresponsible parents, whether single _or_ married. Certainly, my parents were married when I was born, but they shouldn’t have had kids! I have a tenant (female, unmarried) who has three young children by two different fathers. She should not have children. Not because she’s single, but because she’s an unfit mother. People who are not prepared to be parents shouldn’t be parents, regardless of marital status! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/112 "2009-12-18T20:56:37Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > That’s something I wish I could get across to people who choose to have kids, **Voyager**. They say that they want kids, and I believe them because they have no reason to lie to me, but I have NEVER felt that desire to have a child - I don’t know what it feels like. I’m not suppressing an interest in kids - I simply don’t have any. I understand that it is a strong drive in them, and maybe that’s why they can’t seem to understand that other people are different from them. How prominent is that belief that you are suppressing a desire though? I mean I think you shouldn’t have kids if you didn’t want them. It would limit our interaction because we travel in different circles, but I bet we could sit down to dinner and have a wonderful evening shooting the shit about Sci Fi. And I think it’s wonderful that you have a community that goes out and gives to society at large as you are able. Whenever people make an argument like yours here, I often think that you must hang out with some really narrow-minded people. But then again, I guess the topic just never comes up in my presence as I have kids, and I had my first kid in what has become a normal time-frame, at the same age my Father was when I was born, 29. I’m not trying to come across as condescending, I am just saying that your experience is something I have no corresponding experience for. I never hear long drawn out conversations about people’s choice to have kids. Nothing more than, “You don’t want kids ever, for sure? Like never ever? Really? Wow!”, and that’s about the extent of it. I think a lot of people believe it’s deterministic, that we are hardwired to want children. I wanted kids, I always wanted them since I was little I wanted them, and maybe that’s unusual for a young man to know that he wants kids as a teenager. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/113 "2009-12-18T20:59:15Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > In an overpopulated world, one less child is a wonderful thing. …but once they are born, they are welcome with open arms. Depends, honestly, it is the wealthiest and most educated among us who choose not to breed. Therefore the most educated are the least likely to pass on their legacy. Interesting isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Even in an overpopulated world, the optimal birth rate is somewhere north of zero. So while one less child (for families of _any_ size) is a good thing, there’s no need to declare jihad on the rest. In practice, the two goals are in confict. Richer societies are the ones that can afford luxuries such as space exploration. Heck, richer societies are the sorts that can provide a wider variety of experiences for their citizenry as well. Richer societies suffer too. I’d like to see a world that hovers around replacement rate. But I also would like to see a unified Global order. 😉 So I’m an odd duck. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/114 "2009-12-18T21:00:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I suppose it is similar to the reaction the celebate-by-choice get. Sex is such a big part of enjoying life for most people that it is simply hard to understand someone who _could_ have some but _chooses_ not to, absent something like a strong religious belief; that some people simply lack any sex drive. It also reminds me of the gay vs straight argument. I no more chose to want to have kids than I chose to be straight, and vice versa I’m sure. I wonder if this comes from those who are sure god wanted us to be one way or another, and thus have a big problem with the concept that people are naturally born with inborn desires going against “what is right.” This is not an attack on religion, just to be clear, since plenty of people feel god likes diversity. It is only about those who think god wants everybody to be just like them. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/115 "2009-12-18T21:23:00Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It also reminds me of the gay vs straight argument. I no more chose to want to have kids than I chose to be straight, and vice versa I’m sure. I wonder if this comes from those who are sure god wanted us to be one way or another, and thus have a big problem with the concept that people are naturally born with inborn desires going against “what is right.” > > This is not an attack on religion, just to be clear, since plenty of people feel god likes diversity. It is only about those who think god wants everybody to be just like them. I think it has more to do with _surprise_ than any distain for people ‘not doing what God commanded’ - the latter wouldn’t of course be a reaction open to atheists, and some atheists are surprised by folks who outright state they never intend to have kids. Having kids is simply part of the traditional package that constitutes the life well lived. For those that have this template in mind, not having kids is a serious _deprivation_. They aren’t angry that those who deliberately choose not to do it for failing in a duty, they are simply surprised that someone would want of their own free will to suffer such a deprivation. Hence the reaction some people have (if they are not remembering to be polite) to the announcement “we don’t have any kids” - “Oh, that’s so sad” or “that’s too bad” or “have you tried ?” I can sorta understand how this assumption would be annoying to those who have chosen not to have kids, but in the vast majority of cases it isn’t meant maliciously. It is similar to an announcement of (say) complete lack of sexual desire. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/116 "2009-12-18T22:27:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > They aren’t angry that those who deliberately choose not to do it for failing in a duty, they are simply surprised that someone would want of their own free will to suffer such a deprivation. Surprised over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? Isn’t there some point where if it’s just “surprise” that the person should, I dunno, stop being surprised? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/117 "2009-12-18T22:43:32Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Surprised over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? Isn’t there some point where if it’s just “surprise” that the person should, I dunno, stop being surprised? I can’t say. In my experience, the number of people who will state that they do not want kids is vanishingly small; assuming that this is representative, it is not a case of constant re-iteration, since the person expressing the surprise will not have met many (or indeed any) others who feel the same way. It may of course feel that way to someone who doesn’t want kids, because _they_ get the same reaction all the time. OTOH, if it is the very same person expressing “surpise” over and over again to you, that’s not kosher. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/118 "2009-12-18T23:56:10Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Yes, there are people who regret having kids. It’s not considered a good thing to say out loud, but that doesn’t mean nobody ever feels that way. I would go so far as to say many parents have at least a few moments of regret, and a lot of parents know they made a mistake by having children. My own mother is one of them. She hates caring for things and people - and yet had three babies, ended up with a disabled husband, and had a miserable life. She shouldn’t have had kids and both she and I know that. I’m glad I’m here though! And she did her best, it just wasn’t always great for us. To the OP: I have a burning desire to have children and have since I was a teenager, and while I’ve toyed with the thought of the social/global ramifications of having them or not, the effect of my kids on their world really has so little to do with my desire to be a parent. I think most people either want them, or not (this covers anything from loathing all children to simply never having much of an urge to procreate). And either way we can give some intellectual reasons for our feelings, but it’s more of an instinctual thing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/119 "2009-12-19T01:03:09Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I can’t say. In my experience, the number of people who will state that they do not want kids is vanishingly small; assuming that this is representative, it is not a case of constant re-iteration, since the person expressing the surprise will not have met many (or indeed any) others who feel the same way. > > It may of course feel that way to someone who doesn’t want kids, because _they_ get the same reaction all the time. > > OTOH, if it is the very same person expressing “surpise” over and over again to you, that’s not kosher. It may be something like being an atheist - you don’t bring it up until pressed. I think back when my parents had me you’d be correct, in that there would be few couples deliberately not wanting children (which was not that easy to do back then anyway.) Today though, it is pretty common, and unless you live in a community where not having kids is somehow immoral, it shouldn’t be a big shock. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/120 "2009-12-19T01:06:17Z")
I can only speak for myself and the childfree people we socialize with, but we don’t go around talking about our childfree status. I never bring it up with people - you’ll never find out from me that I don’t have kids unless you ask me directly (in real life, that is - I’m much more open about it here). I will say that the reactions of people to finding out that I’m childfree by choice are getting better. **mswas** , we probably could hang out and have good discussions that didn’t revolve around children, but in my experience, people who have kids like to talk about kids. I don’t share that interest. On preview, **Voyager** nailed it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653.md?page=7)