# Ethical Implications of Remaining Childless By Choice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653 "2009-12-17T17:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/161 "2009-12-22T01:09:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I am using it the way it is defined in the dictionary. > > I am sorry if that doesn’t support whatever appeal to emotion you want to make with it. If that’s how it is defined in the dictionary, then the dictionary is wrong; the way people use the word takes precedence. And as a practical matter, the definition you are using is useless. > [@mswas](#): > > I’m not DEFINING selfishness in any way that makes most actions selfish. > > Most actions ARE selfish. Only using your deliberately useless definition of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/162 "2009-12-22T01:15:56Z")
I don’t agree with you, **Der Trihs** - most actions are indeed selfish. We do things because we want to do them - we want the results they produce or the feelings they produce; we avoid things because we don’t want the results or the feelings; what part of that is not selfish? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/163 "2009-12-22T01:17:25Z")
Jesus Christ. If every action is “selfish” then “selfish” means “action” and is a pretty useless word when the spiffy “action” already exists. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/164 "2009-12-22T01:20:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If that’s how it is defined in the dictionary, then the dictionary is wrong; the way people use the word takes precedence. And as a practical matter, the definition you are using is useless. Oh, the dictionary is wrong. 😃 > [@](#): > > Only using your deliberately useless definition of the word. I hate it when reality doesn’t conform to my appeals to emotion too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/165 "2009-12-22T01:21:29Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Jesus Christ. If every action is “selfish” then “selfish” means “action” and is a pretty useless word when the spiffy “action” already exists. Who said, ‘every’? I said, ‘Most’. There is also the term, ‘action’, in terms of say a wind blowing in the breeze. That’s action. But it’s not selfish. A rockslide is action, but it’s not selfish. Most human choices? Selfish. This does not preclude altruistic actions. My intermediate school was named after Daniel Fernandez who was famous for throwing himself on top of a hand grenade and saving his platoon. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/166 "2009-12-22T02:06:50Z")
Haven’t we the technology yet to just grow the little crumb-crunchers in vats? We could just let robots house-train them and teach them a marketable trade, then let 'em out once they’ve proven they won’t do stupid shit or bother me? Maybe it’s a bit too Brave of a plan, but those are the sort of New ideas that I think would make for a far less annoying World. Or less-annoying movie theaters, at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/167 "2009-12-22T02:08:06Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Haven’t we the technology yet to just grow the little crumb-crunchers in vats? We could just let robots house-train them and teach them a marketable trade, then let 'em out once they’ve proven they won’t do stupid shit or bother me? > > Maybe it’s a bit too Brave of a plan, but those are the sort of New ideas that I think would make for a far less annoying World. Or less-annoying movie theaters, at the very least. If we’re going to do that why not just euthanize all humans and simply have AIs rule the Earth? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/168 "2009-12-22T03:27:46Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I don’t agree with you, **Der Trihs** - most actions are indeed selfish. We do things because we want to do them - we want the results they produce or the feelings they produce; we avoid things because we don’t want the results or the feelings; what part of that is not selfish? Congratulations; you too have defined selfish as “any behavior not produced by an irresistible compulsion”. Again; using that definition just makes the word “selfish” useless. Are you saying there’s no useful distinction to be made between a thief and someone who rescues you? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/169 "2009-12-22T04:00:04Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Ethical Implications of Remaining Childless By Choice. (skipping to the end because the choices aren’t nearly as deep as young’ns might think) It’s ethically okay, even boringly pretentious. Though my wife and I read “Marching Morons,” we still reproduced. Just keep you and your partner away from adorable 1-2-yr-olds because they are contagious. Even worse are newborns to two months, who still emit Baby Whiff. People who claim humans are not susceptible to pheromones have avoided infants. One smell and it stops seeming like a bad idea. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/170 "2009-12-22T04:22:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Congratulations; you too have defined selfish as “any behavior not produced by an irresistible compulsion”. Again; using that definition just makes the word “selfish” useless. Are you saying there’s no useful distinction to be made between a thief and someone who rescues you? No it doesn’t it makes the word selfish mean precisely what it’s root word implies that it means. But go ahead and use crude and vulgar language to your heart’s content. No one really cares. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/171 "2009-12-22T15:22:28Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > (skipping to the end because the choices aren’t nearly as deep as young’ns might think) It’s ethically okay, even boringly pretentious. Though my wife and I read “Marching Morons,” we still reproduced. Just keep you and your partner away from adorable 1-2-yr-olds because they are contagious. Even worse are newborns to two months, who still emit Baby Whiff. People who claim humans are not susceptible to pheromones have avoided infants. One smell and it stops seeming like a bad idea. :eek: Interesting you should mention that. I find newborns have a smell (I mean here clean newborns :D) that is positively intoxicating, and hard to describe; I’ve never seen anyone else reference this. ---
**Author:** ![StoutHearted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@StoutHearted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StoutHearted)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/172 "2009-12-22T16:49:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That’s true, but you have to wake up and recognize your responsibility to society as you raise a child. My only problem with childless people is more with the radicals the ‘childfree’ set who think that the normal English word ‘childless’ oppresses them. These are the people likely to vote against funding schools and parks and such. That’s where the ethical obligations come in. My children are people, and you have as much an obligation to them as they have to you. Um, no. I don’t have any obligations to your child. That’s quite an entitled attitude. P.S. Childfree people enjoy parks too. And many of us have no qualms against funding for schools. We want the kids to stay educated and off our lawns! (shakes cane) > [@](#): > > One day you will be old, and it will be my grandkids that are your nurses at the nursing home, remember that. Can you guarantee that? Can you guarantee that your children will live to adulthood, and will be willing to help you out in your twilight years? If you think so, take a walk around the nursing home sometime and see all the elderly moms and dads forgotten by their children. I’ve heard stories from friends who worked in such places, and they certainly would not be Hallmark-approved. The “nursing home” retort is one of the most ridiculous arguments used against the childfree. First of all, you’re assuming that childless people don’t see their retirement years coming and subsequently do not adequately prepare. But you – are you insinuating that parents don’t need to prepare at all, that they’ll just sponge off their kids? > [@](#): > > On a personal level, if you are childless and you live a long and fruitful life you could one day find yourself in a nursing home with no personal advocate. Oh noes! I better get to birthing dem babies, pronto! The facts: Giving birth to children does _not_ guarantee that you’ll have a “personal advocate” later in life. Remaining childless does _not_ mean that no one will ever be on your side later in life. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/173 "2009-12-22T16:51:41Z")
> [@StoutHearted](#): > > Um, no. I don’t have any obligations to your child. That’s quite an entitled attitude. It’s called the Social Contract, look it up. ---
**Author:** ![StoutHearted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@StoutHearted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StoutHearted)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/174 "2009-12-22T17:01:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s called the Social Contract, look it up. Yeah, I’ll go look up that hypothetical “contract” right away. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/175 "2009-12-22T18:57:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Congratulations; you too have defined selfish as “any behavior not produced by an irresistible compulsion”. Well, yeah. There are very few people who wake up in the morning and say to themselves, “Well, I think I’m going to spend the day doing things I don’t enjoy for no benefit to me whatsoever.” People who hate their jobs do it for the money. People who volunteer do it for the good feeling they get. > [@](#): > > Again; using that definition just makes the word “selfish” useless. Are you saying there’s no useful distinction to be made between a thief and someone who rescues you? People can act altruistically in the heat of the moment (and people often do). Most people don’t decide to have or not have kids like you decide to help someone in a burning building, though. ---
**Author:** ![krebbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/85e7bf/32.png) [@krebbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krebbin)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/176 "2009-12-22T19:57:14Z")
Well now, would it be selfish of me to point out that all this arguing over definitions has hijacked what started out as a serious question for debate?🙂 Just for the record I never wanted kids and now being 58 years old I still don’t want kids. I didn’t want either the responsibility or the waste of MY time on Earth. I’ve never regretted that decision and am lucky enough to have a partner who feels the same, even though she was for years a brilliant nursery school teacher and loved her little charges. It’s a choice that was quite easy to make. You can always change it later! ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/177 "2009-12-23T15:16:25Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > (skipping to the end because the choices aren’t nearly as deep as young’ns might think) It’s ethically okay, even boringly pretentious. Though my wife and I read “Marching Morons,” we still reproduced. Just keep you and your partner away from adorable 1-2-yr-olds because they are contagious. Even worse are newborns to two months, who still emit Baby Whiff. People who claim humans are not susceptible to pheromones have avoided infants. One smell and it stops seeming like a bad idea. :eek: Eeew. Babies smell funny- like dandruff. Kind of dry and powdery, yet greasy (even freshly washed). Or they smell like plastic (diapers), or worse, poo. I always hear people rhapsodizing about their scent, though. I say this as someone who wants kids and plans to have them - but I have never enjoyed the scent of babies. Or of any other human except for my boyfriend. I try to avoid smelling anyone - I keep my distance and keep my face as far away from baby heads as I can even while holding them. I expect my own children will smell delicious to me, as BF does… ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/178 "2009-12-23T15:34:28Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > Eeew. Babies smell funny- like dandruff. Kind of dry and powdery, yet greasy (even freshly washed). Or they smell like plastic (diapers), or worse, poo. I always hear people rhapsodizing about their scent, though. > > I say this as someone who wants kids and plans to have them - but I have never enjoyed the scent of babies. Or of any other human except for my boyfriend. I try to avoid smelling anyone - I keep my distance and keep my face as far away from baby heads as I can even while holding them. > > I expect my own children will smell delicious to me, as BF does… Yep, your own baby will most likely smell delightful to you. Or, if he/she _doesn’t_ smell delightful, you’ll use that “off” smell to detect what’s wrong: has s/he messed up the diaper? Has s/he vomited while you weren’t looking and now it’s down the pants? Does s/he need bath/hair wash? etc. When it’s _your_ kid, it really is a whole different thing! (Which is not said to try to persuade the non-parenting types from deciding to have children! Believe me, if you _think_ you don’t want children, everyone, especially you, will be better off if you _don’t_ have them!) But things really are different with your own kids; in some ways it’s a lot harder, but in some ways, it’s a lot easier. . .hard to explain, really. Baby smell: I had a very close friend in high school; a couple years out of high school, she was in a serious car crash. She was on knife’s edge of death for a bit, but after a couple months in a coma, pulled through and recovered fully except she will never have a sense of smell again. When she had her first baby, she lamented that she would never know what Grayce smelled like. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/179 "2009-12-24T13:34:53Z")
Maybe “baby smell” is linked to the desire to have kids - I have an excellent sense of smell, but I have never smelled anything even remotely close to “delicious” coming off of babies. They look funny to me, too - like deformed humans. ---
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653/180 "2009-12-25T16:52:12Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > My decision to not have children is simply because I don’t want that level of responsibility, and would like to spend the time and disposable income that I would save on things I want. Mom of 1 here that thinks your choice is quite responsible. What’s selfish is people who don’t want the responsibility that have kids anyway. You know what you want, you know kids would mess that up, and you’re choosing not to reproduce. I think that’s cool. > [@Gestalt](#): > > So, my questions are, do we as a society have a societal obligation to raise productive citizens? Those in society who choose to have children have an obligation to raise productive citizens. > [@Gestalt](#): > > If you say yes, what are the limits of this obligation? Are people just obliged to produce at a replacement rate? People should have as many kids they want and can provide for. For some, that will be 1. Other couples can handle several. Whatever works for them. > [@Gestalt](#): > > Or, because of issues of overpopulation, do you think people with means in both the developing and developed worlds should limit their reproduction? Nope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-implications-of-remaining-childless-by-choice/521653.md?page=10)