# Ethical Solution For Our Worst Murderers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 29, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656 "2000-02-29T20:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/1 "2000-02-29T20:31:00Z")
From the other Murderers thread: > [@](#): > > What’s a victimless crime? Crime should be defined as the abridgement of rights. No crime, then, would be victimless. No one is entitled by God or nature to bend the consent of anyone else who is already behaving ethically. They are not entitled even if they are the Chief Magistrate. Even if scribbles in ancient documents authorize it. Even if nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine people out of a million authorize it. Even if _everybody_ authorizes it. A man who abridges the rights of another man forfeits his own, by his voluntary decision to define rights arbitrarily. Those who abridge rights should be forced to recompense their victims and restore them to their state prior to the tyranny, and their contract with their government should be voided because they stand in breach. As to what is fair retaliation when a victim cannot be restored, let the victim decide this. ---
**Author:** ![egkelly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/db5fbb/32.png) [@egkelly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/egkelly)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/2 "2000-02-29T20:49:00Z")
What I’m about to suggest sounds barbarous, but it makes ense: instead of imprisoning murderes, or killing them, subject then to an operation which will render them blind. Then, they will be unable to kill again, and yet would retain a measure of freedom. Also, they would have to support themselves-no nice prisons with workout rooms, TV, etc. Sounds horrible-but makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/3 "2000-02-29T20:53:00Z")
Yes, because we all know that blind people couldn’t possibly kill someone. (well, unless they were behind the wheel of a car or something. ) But really, how would that keep them from committing crimes? Sure, they can’t _see_, but whoever said that was a requirement? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/4 "2000-02-29T21:02:00Z")
Murderers, by abridging the right to life, have forfeited their own right to it. ---
**Author:** ![Sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/5 "2000-02-29T21:07:00Z")
Lib, I totally agree with you, however, it usually takes an element of extreme heinousness to get the DP. Hence, my suggestion on the other thread as possibly the “next best thing” for those who don’t get the DP. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/6 "2000-02-29T21:47:00Z")
So you borrow my pencil without asking. Even though you later return it, you used it first. Let’s say you have used 1% of the lead in the pencil. I guess this means that you’ve “abridged” my right to use this 1% of my pencil. Now according to you I should have the right to determine the punishment? If I want to, I get to take all your stuff. This is what you are arguing? Do I have a right to a pencil? Can this right be “abridged.” Why is your definition better than “stealing.” Why does an unreasonable victim get to choose the punishment? How is this btter than having standardized “reasonable” punishments arbitrated by impartial third parties? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/7 "2000-02-29T22:15:00Z")
Scylla, how do you miss so much in your responses to me? Again, but with emphasis this time… As to what is fair retaliation **when a victim cannot be restored** , let the victim decide this. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/8 "2000-02-29T22:16:00Z")
**Sage** Maybe a man should deliberate soberly before taking on more than he can afford. ---
**Author:** ![Gilligan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Gilligan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilligan)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/9 "2000-02-29T22:35:00Z")
Lib, this thread inspired me to do some reading on the subject of libertarian approaches to criminal justice, and I found something of interest here: [http://www.prolibertate.org/english/justice1.htm](http://www.prolibertate.org/english/justice1.htm) > [@](#): > > Inflicting the death penalty on a murderer may satisfy certain feelings of vengeance and some people may believe it deters future criminal acts, but it is irrational in a restitution-based system. If my life could be taken to replace the one I have cut short, there might be some reason for so doing. It does not seem, however, that science is anywhere near inventing a transfer-of-life machine. So why would my killing someone would mean that I forfeit my own right to life ? Let’s assume, for instance, I burgle my neighbour’s house and walk away with his television set. I have deprived him of watching his favourite soap opera or football match. Does this mean that I now owe him his television set, or another one just as good, plus compensation for the aggravation; or does it mean that I have forfeited my own right to watch the programs I enjoy ? If my stealing a television set does not forfeit my right to own a television set myself, how does my stealing a life forfeit my right to my own life? I’d appreciate your comments on this passage. ---
**Author:** ![Sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/10 "2000-02-29T23:02:00Z")
**Gil** , how about the old “eye for an eye” bit? If you deprive another of their life, yes, you should pay with own. In simpler times maybe you could be deprived of your TV too. Not today. The Laws and the court systems are too complicated! Forget vengeance, forget restitution, forget punishment. Forget making it too complicated. That’s what got us into this mess. “KISS” it. (Keep It Simple Stupid!) In depriving another of life, you have committed the ultimate crime against humanity; against every person on this planet. The party’s over. Go home. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/11 "2000-02-29T23:17:00Z")
KISS – what an admirable basis for a system of justice. Let us abandon all of those complicated measures which we have developed to deal with the complex realities of teh world and replace them with simple, mindless and arbitrary punishments. Simple answers to complex questions may not yield justice, but they will help simple folk feel better. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19adc/32.png) [@Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/12 "2000-02-29T23:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Sage: > **Gil, how about the old “eye for an eye” bit?** I argued for the DP for thirty years, but recently I’ve begun to wonder. If it is wrong for an individual to commit murder, how is it right for the state to do so? Should the state not set a better example in how to deal with those you have problems with? ## I thought the “eye for an eye” philosophy was replaced by “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. I’m not a Christian, but I always thought that was a heck of a good way to think. If you won’t question what you think, why call it thinking? ---
**Author:** ![inertia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d07c76/32.png) [@inertia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inertia)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/13 "2000-02-29T23:39:00Z")
The problem with “Those who abridge rights should be forced to recompense their victims and restore them to their state prior to the tyranny” is that even if you catch me for stealing this pencil and I am made to return it, how about all of the other pencils I’ve stolen and not gotten busted for. The punishment for a crime should not be based so much on the specifics of the crime, but that a crime was committed. In this situation I would need to be punished for stealing, not for the absence of the pencil which I perpetrated upon you. The pencil is insignificant and any punishment derived from its value would also be insignificant whereas the punishment for stealing might result in a deterent effect for others and me. “and their contract with their government should be voided because they stand in breach.” What would this entail exactly? Strip the SOB and throw him to the wolves? Once someone is excluded from recognition by society could someone else then be punished for abusing him? The assertion that this could work at all is false. There must be a social contract which contains a definition of offenses and the requisit punishment. “as to what is fair retaliation when a victim cannot be restored, let the victim decide this.” Should this be limited to what’s reasonable or just a blank check? Who is to decide what’s reasonable? If the victim is some sort of bleeding heart, does the drunk driver go free? “Crime should be defined as the abridgement of rights. No crime, then, would be victimless.” Who would be the victim in the case of drunk driving if the drunk doesn’t actually kill anyone tonight. It’s a certainty that given enough time, someone who continually drives drunk is going to kill someone. The only way to create a deterrent is to make the punishment sooooo bad that noone would ever even consider driving drunk. Not such a bad idea actually. I believe that’s the way it works in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/14 "2000-02-29T23:41:00Z")
Lib: Yeah, I guess I did miss that part. Oooops! The other 80% of my post still remains unanswered, but that’s okay, Spiritus hit the nail on the head. Let’s just pretend it was me that said it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/15 "2000-03-01T01:51:00Z")
## MAT 5:38-39, “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.” ## Hmmm, it don’t say nuthin’ about the DP, now does it? I only know two things; I know what I need to know And I know what I want to know Mangeorge, 2000 ---
**Author:** ![Sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/16 "2000-03-01T02:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi: > KISS – what an admirable basis for a system of justice. Whoa! That was meant for the sentencing! **Not** determining guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/17 "2000-03-01T03:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Wolf: > I argued for the DP for thirty years, but recently I’ve begun to wonder. If it is wrong for an individual to commit murder, how is it right for the state to do so? Should the state not set a better example in how to deal with those you have problems with? Right! Like the mass murder is likely to follow a good example set by anyone! Individual or State! 😃😃😃 The state has a responsibility to protect society - us. To make sure killers are never let loose on us again, whether they use the DP or life without parole. Do you really think the state turning the other cheek" is what you want? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/18 "2000-03-01T04:04:00Z")
## Sage says; Do you really think the state turning the other cheek" is what you want? Nope. I don’t like quotes, taken totally out of context, used as justification for for our actions either. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/19 "2000-03-01T04:34:00Z")
Didn’t the murderer decide his own fate. It is no secret that the punishment for murder is sometimes death. Isn’t it just a roll of the dice for him. To get caught or not to get caught. He /she dragged humanity back thousands of years to the animal instincts . ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656/20 "2000-03-01T05:57:00Z")
Since we appear to be expressing our personal opinions here, I shall express mine. A person who commits a serious violent crime proves himself insane. After taking reasonable measures to protect myself, I view the person as ill, and I have pity on him or her, and I have no thirst for vengance. At our current primitive level of psychological knowlege, it is probably impossible to assure a cure, and lifetime segregation is thus inevitable. I pity such necessity. Answering questions before they’ve been asked: No, I have not been a victim of a violent crime. Yes, people close to me have been victims of violent crime. Yes, I probably would become insane with anger should one of my children be murdered. Yes, I would kill to protect myself or my children; however I doubt I would have the means to do so. Yes, I’m a bleeding-heart liberal, and damn proud of it. * * * He’s the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armor, shouting ‘All Gods are Bastards!’ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17656.md?page=2)