# Ethical to adopt dog under false pretenses then give it away? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358 "2009-11-12T21:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/41 "2009-11-13T01:17:38Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > It would be if you paid cash for the car, thus acquiring title free and clear with no agreed-upon restrictions, I agree. > > But that is not what we are talking about at these shelters. At our local shelter, you can get your dog that way - it is still in startup mode, I don’t think it will be that way forever though. > > We do have more supply than demand, and I believe we are exporting dogs to other parts of the state, which is another issue altogether. > > So if anyone needs a dog, let me know - no lying necessary here 🙂 Though months of therapy have succeeded in curing my dog phobia, I still hate the smelly bastards and would only take one in if for whatever odd reason I happened to own a tiger that needed to be fed. I assume that would bother you, and, anyway, I 'm still afraid of tigers. ---
**Author:** ![xnylder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbce88/32.png) [@xnylder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xnylder)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/42 "2009-11-13T01:29:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s not a good parallel. It would a parallel if, say, you bought a car, paid for it, and then the dealer repossessed it because you were not garaging it, or not changing the oil every 3K miles. Thank you. I’ve been trying to think of a concise way to express that… The best hypothetical I could come up with was buying a refrigerator. If Maytag finds out I’m not calling a certified repairman, or that I’ve damaged it by moving it excessively, they can cancel my guarantee or refuse to service it. I can’t imagine they’ve got the right to seize it. While I understand the examples \*\*Swallowed My Cellphone \*\* and **not\_alice** bring up, I don’t think they quite parallel the pet adoption situation. In the case of internet service, I’m continually paying for the connection. If I do something against the TOS, the company stops providing the connection but they do not rip wires out of my wall or seize my modem. In the case of a car or house, the dealership or mortgage provider can repossess if I stop making payments. This threat of repossession ends when the payments do. In the case of pet adoption, I hand over money for the animal and risk having to give the animal back without a refund if I do something the provider doesn’t like. Can this really be enforceable? (PS I really do like animals more than it appears in this thread. I’ve grown up with one cat from the shelter and several strays and can’t imagine having legal strings attached to them is all.) ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/43 "2009-11-13T02:15:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Though months of therapy have succeeded in curing my dog phobia, I still hate the smelly bastards and would only take one in if for whatever odd reason I happened to own a tiger that needed to be fed. I assume that would bother you, and, anyway, I 'm still afraid of tigers. Did I mention we have a seemingly endless supply of pit bulls no longer of use to their gang member owners who were dumped on the streets? How much can your tiger eat? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/44 "2009-11-13T02:29:18Z")
> [@xnylder](#): > > While I understand the examples \*\*Swallowed My Cellphone \*\* and **not\_alice** bring up, I don’t think they quite parallel the pet adoption situation. Oh but they do. In fact, last summer we were at the ASPCA in a neighboring town, we saw a dog we liked, filled out all the paperwork, handed over all the money, signed the form that says we gotta bring him back if we can’t keep him. They say thanks, we jsut gotta give him his final shots or something. OK, we are going to the pet store, we will be back. As we were pulling back into the ASPCA an hour later, my phone rings. Seems they double checked on the chip in the dog, he did have one despite what they said earlier, and had been returned to his family in the intervening hour or so. OK, good for the dog, good for the family, bad for us. We could have made a stink over the particulars of the agreement, but we didn’t. Point being, there most certainly was an agreement that defined the terms of the dog becoming ours and not theirs. > [@](#): > > In the case of internet service, I’m continually paying for the connection. If I do something against the TOS, the company stops providing the connection but they do not rip wires out of my wall or seize my modem. They could if you had agreed to it in advance and there (and there was no other overriding law which there probably is). And the modem is likely no good anymore until you or someone else come to terms with them on new service, if the modem came from them. > [@](#): > > In the case of a car or house, the dealership or mortgage provider can repossess if I stop making payments. This threat of repossession ends when the payments do. IOW when the terms of the contract are fulfilled, the restrictions are released. No different than the case I am talking about. > [@](#): > > In the case of pet adoption, I hand over money for the animal and risk having to give the animal back without a refund if I do something the provider doesn’t like. Can this really be enforceable? You get your money back. They are not in it for the money. We got our money back. Fortunately, the pet store was willing to void a decent size sale too. > [@](#): > > (PS I really do like animals more than it appears in this thread. I’ve grown up with one cat from the shelter and several strays and can’t imagine having legal strings attached to them is all.) Then choose your shelters carefully in the future or stick to strays. Not all of them are like that, as I said upstream, where I live, ours is not. But I can see it might be at some point in the future, we are new. Mostly a supply and demand thing in my experience though. If shelters or rescue groups can be picky because demand outstrips supply, they will be. But drive out to a rural area, you might find things change… ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/45 "2009-11-13T02:29:20Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > Honestly I feel a very affectionate home is MUCH less important than a home that gives some stimulation (as long as the animals are warm, fed, not mistreated). I should have said treated with kindness, not affection. Overdoing the affection and not understanding how to communicate and discipline is the main cause of behavior problems of all stripes in dogs and cats. > > Shelters: > > 1. They should have the freedom to deny who they please if they seem shady, or if they feel the animal in question is inappropriate for a stated situation/family (NOT APPLYING to normal things like ‘lives in an apartment’, ‘works 8 hours per day’, or ‘will let their cat go outside’). > > 2. Should screen for age, and require a meeting with parents/guardians if a minor wishes to adopt. > > 3. Should require an okay from landlord for renters. > > 4. There should be some sort of consultation about the particulars of the home, family, and routine, with guidance being given on what would make the best situation. > > 5. It should be made clear that if things don’t work out, they should bring the animal back to the organization, rather than giving it away. But no situations like the Ellen DeGenere debacle, that’s madness. If the animal has already been rehomed in a stable enough situation, why mess with it? > > They do all these things already, they are just waaaay too unrealistic in their expectations and way to quick to weed out worthy potential homes based on factors that don’t make a big difference. I can agree with a great deal of what you say, and would be willing to withdraw an argument in favor of preferring house with yard to apartment dwelling. I did think the EG debacle was a bit over the top, but I still think that the very original OP way overstepped the bounds. Perhaps the girl was turned down originally for something under #4, that didn’t pertain to the housing situation, and the shelter just used that as a ready excuse. Either way, it is the shelter’s right to turn away a potential adoptee and people shouldn’t lie to get around their rules. And then she sold it to someone that she decided was ok, without knowing the background of the dog herself. > [@](#): > > An apartment/condo dweller is much more likely to interact with the dog when they are home, and will take it outside several times each day Not necessarily, it all depends on the human and there are just as many bad ones as good ones. One of the reasons you see less dog abuse/neglect in apartments is because they can’t have them there at all in lots of cases. we’re dealing with a much smaller population, and because of the special requirements of having dogs in an apt, people **may** be more likely to think it through before they drop a couple hundred on a pet deposit. OTOH, a landlord can change their mind pretty much any time they want, and with sufficient notice, could ban dogs in their buildings. But all in all, I really don’t disagree with your statement. Decent humans can have dogs in either apartments or condos or houses with yards. Unpleasant people can torture a dog anywhere too. I guess I advocate for yards because that’s what my 3 boys have, and they love their yard! They go between the house and the yard through a doggie door and are outside as often as they can be, in decent weather. They are complete weenies when it rains though, we pretty much have to stand right by the door and tell them to go all the way through, or they stop with their butt still in the house. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/46 "2009-11-13T03:03:09Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s not a good parallel. It would a parallel if, say, you bought a car, paid for it, and then the dealer repossessed it because you were not garaging it, or not changing the oil every 3K miles. If you told them that you were going to garage it and change the oil every 3k miles, and that was the only reason they agreed to sell you the car, then you _are_ obligated to forfil your end of the bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/47 "2009-11-13T03:28:10Z")
> [@whorfin](#): > > Why limit it to a dog? I think there are very good reasons to say it is wrong in that context, but the general point seems to me to be quite clear. > > The OP is asking, in more general terms, if it is ethical to lie to someone to make them agree to do something they wouldn’t agree to do if the truth is known? > > If that’s not the definition of unethical, I don’t know what is. Yep. If your grandmother leaves you her favorite tea set under the condition you’ll treasure it and leave it to your children, its unethical to sell it on eBay the day after the funeral. Don’t like the terms the current owner of the dog is willing to give you/sell you the dog under…find a different owner/dog. Don’t like the terms under which you are getting the tea set, let Grandma know her treasured tea set might be better off with one of your cousins. I think a lot of rescue folks are nuts (homestudy? stay at home doggy parent?) but there are a lot of dogs in need of homes and a lot of places that aren’t picky. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/48 "2009-11-13T03:44:07Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Cite for animals being capable of “an emotional response”? Huh? It’s easily observable. But scientists already believe it – look in the literature. ---
**Author:** ![Logical\_Phallacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Logical\_Phallacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Logical_Phallacy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/49 "2009-11-13T05:36:18Z")
ok I have a very simple rebuttal to any anti-trickery argument thus far proposed; i saved this wonderful dog from a lethal injection that was seven days away!! [http://imgur.com/NSKv7.jpg](http://imgur.com/NSKv7.jpg) [http://imgur.com/wRTty.jpg](http://imgur.com/wRTty.jpg) Clearly, the concept of a white lie is lost on some of the participants of this thread! ---
**Author:** ![BMada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@BMada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMada)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/50 "2009-11-13T06:21:48Z")
white lie to benefit someone I know, understandable white lie to benefit me, understandable white lie to benefit a total stranger, baffles me. white lie written in contract form, baffles me. ---
**Author:** ![Logical\_Phallacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Logical\_Phallacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Logical_Phallacy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/51 "2009-11-13T06:25:24Z")
white lie to save his life [http://imgur.com/NSKv7.jpg](http://imgur.com/NSKv7.jpg) [http://imgur.com/wRTty.jpg](http://imgur.com/wRTty.jpg) i miss my own dog ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BMada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@BMada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMada)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/52 "2009-11-13T06:34:14Z")
I miss my dead dog too, but worth a white lie to not have the dog myself and given to a complete stranger? fuck hell no. Have that all written out on a contract that I’m the sole owner and give it away? fuck hell no. There is no possible reason other than wanting to get in said stranger’s pants that I would even remotely consider such a white lie. I would need to get something in return for such a white lie and having a dog living or not be euthanized is not enough reason for me. Fuck dogs die plenty everywhere, why this one dog? why this stranger? emotions take you over that easy? ---
**Author:** ![Logical\_Phallacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Logical\_Phallacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Logical_Phallacy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/53 "2009-11-13T06:57:02Z")
When I was little, sometimes my parents tried to put me to bed a little before I was tired enough to sleep. They might read (or sing) to me for a little while, but eventually, one those nights I wasn’t sleepy, I was left up alone laying in bed for a few minutes. I can’t count the number of times I lay awake with the thought that “i really really hope tonight i dont have any bad dreams of a dog getting cut or hurt, there is nothing worse i can think of during a nightmare”. dunno where the image first came from, if when i was super-young i had 1 bad dream of a hurt dog that traumatized me or something. anyways. when i came across a craigslist posting to help someone rescue a dog, I didn’t have to think very hard about it. Sure lots of dogs die needlessly every day, but on this day, I had the opportunity to save one dog. I am happy with my decision. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/54 "2009-11-13T07:24:48Z")
I may have not been the greatest parent to my Rescue Collie, but she was born with a jaw that shifted itself to a point that her teeth on that side were usually exposed to the air so she lost them to exposure to the air. After a dozen years of loving her and her loving us (especially because she is well into her golden years and, were she aware of the concept, would prefer to spend her last days with her family) I’m not about to explain to Collie Rescue why I never bought her doggy braces so that they took her away from us. OTOH, regarding the question in the thread’s title: It’s a dog. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/55 "2009-11-13T14:27:09Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > I guess I advocate for yards because that’s what my 3 boys have, and they love their yard! They go between the house and the yard through a doggie door and are outside as often as they can be, in decent weather. They are complete weenies when it rains though, we pretty much have to stand right by the door and tell them to go all the way through, or they stop with their butt still in the house. 😃 I would LOVE to have a yard, fenced or not, for my dogs. I think it’s great for dogs (and kids) to have a contained outdoor space to be active in. If I had one it would be great for days with bad weather, and I would take them out there all the time to throw balls and chase each other around. But…my dogs are still happy and well-cared-for, without one. I doubt I will ever own a home, and might not even rent a house with a yard. My dogs and future kids will still be happy and well-cared-for. I will make time for them to get outside to play, other places. I guess my philosophy is ‘yards don’t make happy dogs, people make happy dogs’. Yards can have a big impact on a dog’s life, of course. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/56 "2009-11-13T15:09:01Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Huh? It’s easily observable. But scientists already believe it – look in the literature. It’s not easily observable without anthropomorphizing, but yes, I appreciate the cites folks have supplied. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/57 "2009-11-13T16:26:01Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > It’s not easily observable without anthropomorphizing, but yes, I appreciate the cites folks have supplied. People tend to anthropomorphize their pets to a ridiculous level.. I don’t think dogs feel ‘sad’, ‘miss me’, or ‘get embarrassed’. All those are assumptions that assume dogs are capable of the same emotional complexity as people (totally untrue). But they obviously experience and express uncomplicated emotions such as fear, anger, dominance, submission, excitement, and ‘joy’. They are also capable of enough foresight to react emotionally before certain events (for example, when you come home, you dog starts cringing, then you see that he has gotten into the trash again and tell him off. He is fearful when you come in the door because he knows you are going to yell when he gets in the trash - however he is not ‘guilty’ nor does he understand he has done ‘wrong’). I can see this clearly every day with my dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/58 "2009-11-13T16:32:14Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#): > > But they obviously experience and express uncomplicated emotions such as fear, anger, dominance, submission, excitement, and ‘joy’. They are also capable of enough foresight to react emotionally before certain events (for example, when you come home, you dog starts cringing, then you see that he has gotten into the trash again and tell him off. He is fearful when you come in the door because he knows you are going to yell when he gets in the trash - however he is not ‘guilty’ nor does he understand he has done ‘wrong’). I can see this clearly every day with my dogs. Even if they can’t feel guilt, isn’t fear an emotional response? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/59 "2009-11-13T17:01:46Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Even if they can’t feel guilt, isn’t fear an emotional response? I think you overlooked the word _uncomplicated_ in the post you quoted. I daresay that **rhubarbarin** means that fear is a more primal and less intricate response than guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358/60 "2009-11-13T17:08:13Z")
Oops… **gigi** posted about dogs being capable of any emotional response at all so I just assumed it was about emotional responses in general, not complicated. It may not be complicated but if we can assume that dogs are capable of emotions, I think that makes them different from a non-living piece of property then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethical-to-adopt-dog-under-false-pretenses-then-give-it-away/517358.md?page=4)