Ethicity in the former USSR: How are Russians and Ukrainians different?

Canadian and American are definitely ethnicities as well as nationalities. If I were to put on my Anthropologist hat, I’d say Anglophone North America had a number of different regional ethnicities, most in the USA but a handful in Canada. Of course, as an American in Canada (and worse, a half-Canadian American in Canada), some of us complicate the picture. I imagine there’s even more complications in the former USSR.

Edit: there are also ethnicities based on the ancestral culture, which I think is what’s confusing you. Most Americans think of Mexican-American as an ethnicity, and Asian-American as an ethnicity (which isn’t the case: it’s a lot of different ethnicities), but they fail to think of New Englander as an ethnicity. And a lot of people use “ethnicity” as a substitute for “race,” and then people think they’re interchangeable. There are different kinds of ethnicities. All are based on shared culture, but why the culture is shared might be common land of origin, common language, common religion, common geography, etc.

I don’t think you and I use the same definition of ethnicity, but anyway, and thanks to modern mobility, if there is ever a Basque (or, I imagine, Breton) independent nation-state, its ethnicity will be as mixed as today’s US. Today’s Bilbao makes Middle-Ages Pamplona’s three boroughs (dvided by custom/laws, with what we’d today call different ethnical groups living in different ones) look as homogeneous as a bottle of distilled water.

But nation-states do create (or at least promote) one sort of ethnicity. People’s regional culture is important, but they also have a stake in the national culture, and where the expression of the two comes into conflict (e.g. with language), the advantages to choosing the national culture are strong enough to pull people away from the regional cultures.

I was referring to such features as the language spoken at home.

And who says you have to choose? :confused:

Well, the French used to suppress Breton and the Basque languages rather harshly, and look how well the British managed to suppress the Irish. Or look at the expression of black culture or Southern culture vs. mainstream white culture in the US. You don’t inherently have to choose, but for socio-politico-economic reasons, it’s often advantageous to cleave to the national culture rather than the regional.

Usually what happens is people prevent their children from being full participants in the regional culture. That’s what happened to my grandparents, common for the children of immigrants. That’s what happened to my husband’s grandparents, common for the children of colonized people.

You yourself are a great example—you’re fluent in both Spanish culture and Navarrese (is that right?). But I bet you could pull examples from your own family of people who reject the regional culture or at least some of its values.

Slightly off topic, but I often heard minority groups like the Jews and Roma would not be considered either Russian or Ukrainian no matter how long they’d lived there or how much they assimilated. (For example, Soviet internal passports listed “Jewish” as an ethnicity.) Is this still true in the post-Soviet era?

No…

Not a single one. I do have one relative by marriage who’s the opposite, although not Navarrese but Vascongada.

spoilering for rambling length

[spoiler]I have an aunt who’s HB, when my uncle (PNV) found out that he and their children were in ETA’s list of targets their marriage was pretty much over (her being in their political branch means she knew about it). The son (who’s one of those weirdos tha— oh wait, I guess we could count him as rejecting local culture, or maybe evading it is a better word, as we consider debate a sport and he’ll cut his own arm off rather than express disagreement), anyway, the son is the only one in the family who used to write the lastname with a tx (again, a rejection of the Spanish part, not of the Basque part); at one point he saw that his sister wrote it with a ch and asked why, “when in Basque it’s with a tx*” and she gave him the family’s standard answer of “if my ancestors have written it with a ch for over 1000 years, who am I to correct them?”

My American cousins don’t call themselves Venezuelan-American, or Spanish-American. They call themselves Navarrese. One of them married a Guipuzcoano (third gen American, mind you, but guipuchi, and yes he calls himself both guipuzcoano an guipuchi).

Except for the PNV uncle (RIP, natural causes) and his widow, the rest of the family are all

navarro lo primero,
y por navarro, español,
y antes que perder los Fueros,
prefiero perderme yo
, as Moreno Torroba wrote.

(Navarrese first of all, and because of this, a Spaniard; before I lose the Fueros I’d prefer to lose my soul)

(Which strictly speaking isn’t wholly true, since you can be Navarrese and a Frenchman, but nowadays those are more likely to just use Gascon or Landes as it’s less likely to confuse the outsiders. Want another song?

Soy navarro lo primero; español, si me conviene. Y si me quitan los Fueros, francés el año que viene.

I’m Navarrese first of all; a Spaniard if it so suits me. And if they rob me of the Fueros, next year I will be French.)

I think I’ve told the story of Idígoras’ interview before… searches Apparently not.

Back in must-have-been-1999, a radio chain interviewed the spokespersons for each of the parties which made up the national parliament. HB’s was Jon Idígoras. During his interview, someone asked him what did he think had been the worst mistake Basque Nationalism had ever made, and he said “the redefinition of ‘Basque’ to one which placed it in opposition with ‘Navarrese’. We hadn’t realized that if you make a Navarrese choose between eating and being Navarrese you better have the OJ ready, the fuckers love their food as much as anybody else but to the last man, they would stop eating.”

My dying Dad (that’s how I know the date) replied “of course, stop eating I know how, but stop being Navarrese? How’s that work?”

Yet another song: one of the lines that’s been used in the counter-campaign to re-redefine Basque to its old definition is this one:
Vasco navarro soy,
del valle roncalés…

(A Basque Navarrese I am,
from the valley of Roncal)

which depends on who you listen to was sung by Julián Gayarre or merely dedicated to him, but in any case and even though nowadays we’re about the only ones who’ve heard of that 19th century tenor we’re still fond of him.

  • it’s been with a tx since the founder of PNV decreed so, which excuse me but compared with how long that bitch of a lastname has been in the family is a fart in time’s face.

Fueros: the legal system that’s traditional of the Basque areas, now sadly “modernized” and “democratized”. It’s a downside-up system, where custom and tradition come before and are above written law (laws are supposed to be a write-down of customs and/or of parliamentary agreements and you can get a written law changed by showing that it doesn’t match custom).[/spoiler]

Actually - Ethnic (and ethnicity) has become a euphemism for race. In today’s society ‘race’ has unpleasant connotations, so we tend to speak of ‘ethnics’ when we wish to refer to some minority, usually immigrant, group.

So was kurtisokc. A third of Ukrainian citizens – some 11 million people – speak Russian as their mother tongue. I’d wager a majority of those speakers self-identify as Ukrainian, and possibly also as exclusively Ukrainian.

I know a Ukrainian family because the father was employed by a family member and I used to hire him to do things like paint my house. He was a super good guy with lots of skills but wanted nothing to do with his native homeland. I made the mistake once of telling him that I wanted to visit Russia now that the Cold War was over. He replied 'Russia is not good country. You do not want to go there ever. I am not Russian. I am Ukrainian". I tried to make it better and replied, ‘Ok, I would love to see the Ukraine sometime’. He simply replied ‘No, Ukraine is worse country than Russia. Do not ever go there’.

I love those former Soviet types. They keep it short and sweet and tell it to you straight. That is the only thing I know about it so I will just have to take his word for it. That was a few years ago and have maintained my promise not to visit the Ukraine.

The passports no longer list ethnicity (and everyone had ethnicity of some sort listed, not just Jews - and if your parents were of 2 different ethnicities, you could choose which one to list), but the identity issues remain. There have been many, many books written about ethnic identity in the FSU. I once took an entire grad seminar on it.

I interpreted what he said as an attempt to identify inconsistency in what I had said.

Ethnicity and citizenship need not be mutually exclusive, but that does not mean common citizenship makes ethnic differences disappear. Those citizens of Ukraine who speak Russian at home ought to be considered ethnic Russians exactly as those US citizens who speak Spanish at home ought to be considered ethnic Latin Americans.

But my point was that, according to official population statistics, language doesn’t seem to be the dividing line. In parts of Eastern Ukraine, “Russian speakers” outnumber “ethnic Russians,” which implies that the the categories are not coextensive. I assume “Russian speaker” in this context means someone who speaks Russian as his/her native language, but I could be wrong.

Not entirely correct. The Commonwealth of the Philippines was a founding member of the U.N. while still governed by the U.S. And while they were granted independence a year later, there was no guarantee of that in June 1945.

Then there are no Kurds, only Kurmanjis and Soranis ;). Those dialects/languages happen to be pretty much mutually unintelligible - I was talking to a multilingual Sorani-speaking Kurd I know and he said Kurmanji-speaking Kurds might as well be speaking martian for all he could tell. However both groups claim a shared Kurdish heritage.

It always comes down to the politics of group identity. Ukrainians don’t want to be considered Russian, so they aren’t. Same with Serbs, Croats or Bosniaks who use religion as a tribal ID or the the people of Northern Ireland who do the same. Meanwhile there are Arabs in Afghanistan that claim Arab heritage based on legendary descent, but don’t speak a lick of Arabic ( they speak the Dari dialect of Persian instead ). Language is a pretty decent gauge, but nothing is hard and fast when it comes to group identification.

You appear to have access to a very fine-grained ethno-linguistic map or table. Is it available online?

My guess is that “Russian speakers” refers to all citizens of Ukraine who speak Russian, and that that number is higher than the number of ethnic Russians because there are many non-Russians who are proficient in the language. Even if Russian is now deemphasized now there are millions of Ukrainians who grew up during the Soviet era when fluency in Russian was more important; it was probably even required in school.

This is really a subject where it would be nice to obtain comment from a real Ukrainian. I’m a bit surprised one hasn’t shown up already.

India was also a founding member of the United Nations despite not yet being an independent country.

Thanks for the information, I did not know that about the Kurds. By my definition there would be two ethnic groups who share Kurdish identity.

The same type of situation occurs in China, where, I have read, the numerous ethnic dialects (Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese are IIRC the three largest) are in their spoken form more different than English and French. However, the Chinese written language is I think identical for all dialects, and I assume all Kurds also have the same written language- a condition not prevailing between Ukrainians and Russians.

There ought to be some approach by which ethnic groups can be reasonably divided and categorized, and I would think differing languages, written or spoken, should be considered a dividing line.

And they were represented at Versailles and in the League of Nations before that.