# Ethics of Israeli settlements **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116 "2010-09-17T19:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/201 "2010-09-20T21:07:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > Jews weren’t just treated "slightly better’ than they were treated in Europe. Remember the Ottoman genocide of Armenians? Well there was a long list of people the Ottomans genocided, Jews were one of the few minorities NOT on that list. > > That’s an exaggeration. There were expulsions and massacres of Jews by the Ottomans, and if you extend the question to the middle east or Arab world generally, there certainly was a good deal of persecution against Jews. There was violence against Jews even in Mandate Palestine before Israel was founded. Most famously, in 1929, in addition to riots elsewhere, almost the entire Jewish population of Hebron was killed, with the survivors evacuated elsewhere. Yes there was violence against jews after the Zionist movement was underway. When it became clear that Jews wanted to carve out a slice of the former ottoman empire to create their own country, yeah, there was violence against Jews. cont. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/202 "2010-09-20T21:13:08Z")
[quote=“Malthus, post:198, topic:554116”] > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > google [Google Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=israeli+arab+second+class+citizen&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) Google-bombing does not an argument make. > **[Racism in Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_discrimination_in_Israel#Directed_at_Arabs)** > > Racism in Israel encompasses all forms and manifestations of racism experienced in Israel, irrespective of the colour or creed of the perpetrator and victim, or their citizenship, residency, or visitor status. More specifically in the Israeli context, racism in Israel refers to racism directed against Israeli Arabs by Israeli Jews, intra-Jewish racism between the various Jewish ethnic divisions (in particular against Ethiopian Jews), historic and current racism towards Mizrahi Jews althoug R... > **[Anti-Arab racism | Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism#Israel)** > > As a consequence of the Arab–Israeli conflict, there is a high level of hostility between sections of the Jewish and Arab societies in Israel, as well as outside the country. A group of men in Pisgat Ze'ev started patrolling the neighborhood to stop Jewish women from dating Arab men. The municipality of Petah Tikva has a telephone hotline to inform on Jewish girls who date Arab men, as well as a psychological counseling service. Kiryat Gat launched a school programme to warn Jewish girls against ... > **[Second-class citizens in their own country](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3638934/Second-class-citizens-in-their-own-country.html)** > **[BBC News - Q&A: Israeli Arabs](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8165338.stm)** > > The BBC News website looks at the complex position of the 20% of Israeli's population that are of Palestinian Arab descent. Are you seriously trying to argue that Israeli arabs don’t suffer from discrimination in their own country? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/203 "2010-09-20T21:14:10Z")
> **[History of the Jews in Turkey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Turkey)** > > The history of the Jews in Turkey (Turkish: Türk Yahudileri or Türk Musevileri; Hebrew: יהודים טורקים, romanized: Yehudim Turkim; (Ladino: Djudios Turkos) covers the 2400 years that Jews have lived in what is now Turkey. > There have been Jewish communities in Anatolia since at least the beginning of the common era. Anatolia's Jewish population before Ottoman times primarily consisted of Greek-speaking Romaniote Jews, with a handful of dispersed Karaite communities. In the late fifteenth and e... [quote] The greatest influx of Jews into Asia Minor and the Ottoman Empire, occurred during the reign of Mehmed the Conquerors’s successor, Beyazid II (1481-1512), after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain and Portugal. The Sultan issued a formal invitation to Jews expelled from Spain and Portugal and they started arriving in the empire in great numbers. [quote] > [@](#): > > Although the status of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire may have often been exaggerated,[18] it is undeniable that the tolerance they enjoyed was unprecedented. The point is that this was not some marginal difference in how jews were treated by the Ottomans versus teh Europeans, the sort of hostility you see these days is not the legacy of historical prejudices, it is the legacy of teh founding of teh state of Israel. Tehre may be nothing we can do about the creation of teh state of israel but pretending that it wasn’t the source of a lot of the hostility towards Jews in the Middle East is more than misleading. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/204 "2010-09-20T21:27:26Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > > > But when people talk about settlements being a problem they are always refering to illegal settlements built in the Occupied Territories, no one is trying to tell Israel what it can build on its own land. Seeing as around 500,000 settlers are living illegally on land that is not part of Israel that’s quite a problem. > > No, people are complaining about the authorized settlements in the territories too, not just the illegal ones. And your numbers are wrong. There are about 267,000 West Bank settlers, not 500,000. And most of the 267,000 settlers live in authorized settlements. Very few settlers live in unauthorized or illegal settlements. > > Again, in terms of definitions, an authorized settlement is one that’s built on Israeli government land in the West Bank with the prior approval of the Israeli government, an unauthorized settlement is one that’s built on Israeli government land in the West Bank without the approval of the Israeli government, and an illegal settlement is one that’s built on private Palestinian land in the West Bank without the approval of the Israeli government. I’m not mistaken with my figures but I think that’s because we are at odds with the definition of what makes an illegal settlement illegal. In short according to international law **all settlements built on land that within the the area known as The Occupied Terrirories are illegal.** Where your figures differ from mine is where Israel gives permission for illegal settlements to be built in the face of international law. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/205 "2010-09-20T21:28:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Well, if my Grandpa had invested heavily in IBM in 1945, I’d’a been born a multimillionaire. > > If your grandfather invested ehavily in IBM and then had his shares taken by the government then I would say that you shoulda been born a millionaire. Cool! So when can I expect my check? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/206 "2010-09-20T21:35:17Z")
[quote=“Damuri\_Ajashi, post:202, topic:554116”] > [@Malthus](#): > > Google-bombing does not an argument make. > > [Racism in Israel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_discrimination_in_Israel#Directed_at_Arabs) > > [Anti-Arab racism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism#Israel) > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3638934/Second-class-citizens-in-their-own-country.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3638934/Second-class-citizens-in-their-own-country.html) > > [BBC News - Q&A: Israeli Arabs](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8165338.stm) > > Are you seriously trying to argue that Israeli arabs don’t suffer from discrimination in their own country? Are you seriously not reading what I wrote? I said in post 162 above: > [@](#): > > There is no doubt that they can face discrimination from some in the majority population. Posting links concerning anti-Arabism on the part of _Israelis_ is quite besides the point, since we agree it exists and is bad. Posting self-described “personal views” is also quite besides the point, as we both know that some people _believe_ that Israel treats Arabs as second-class citizens. The _facts_ are that, no doubt, there exist specific examples of discrimination - heck, the Israeli government’s own commissions of inquiry find that there are; but that does not justify the moniker ‘second class citizen’, any more than the fact some Jewish Israelis hate Arabs does. The fact that, when challenged on it, even those who are most het up about alleged offical discrimination choose such weak-ass examples as the forgetful lack of signs in Arabic in a new airport terminal, show that they got - very little. [From your own cite - the second from the bottom] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/207 "2010-09-20T21:38:07Z")
> [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > I’m not mistaken with my figures but I think that’s because we are at odds with the definition of what makes an illegal settlement illegal. In short according to international law **all settlements built on land that within the the area known as The Occupied Terrirories are illegal.** Where your figures differ from mine is where Israel gives permission for illegal settlements to be built in the face of international law. No, where we’re at odds with our figures, I think, is that you’re including in your figures Israelis living in East Jerusalem and I’m not. My numbers just include those settlers in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/208 "2010-09-20T21:43:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes there was violence against jews after the Zionist movement was underway. When it became clear that Jews wanted to carve out a slice of the former ottoman empire to create their own country, yeah, there was violence against Jews. > > cont. There was violence against Jews before that. At one point in the 15th century, all the Jews were temporarily expelled from Yemen. At another point, the Jewish population of Safed was wiped out. Looking at North Africa, there were numerous massacres of Jews in Morocco and Algeria. In Muslim Spain, the Jews of Granada were at one point massacred by an anti-Jewish mob. Treatment of Jews were on average better in the Muslim world than the Christian world, but it wasn’t a paradise. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/209 "2010-09-20T23:52:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > Yes there was violence against jews after the Zionist movement was underway. When it became clear that Jews wanted to carve out a slice of the former ottoman empire to create their own country, yeah, there was violence against Jews. > > > > cont. > > There was violence against Jews before that. At one point in the 15th century, all the Jews were temporarily expelled from Yemen. At another point, the Jewish population of Safed was wiped out. Looking at North Africa, there were numerous massacres of Jews in Morocco and Algeria. In Muslim Spain, the Jews of Granada were at one point massacred by an anti-Jewish mob. Treatment of Jews were on average better in the Muslim world than the Christian world, but it wasn’t a paradise. Actually, the more I read on the subject, the more I realize that the Holocaust _wasn’t_ an exceptional or even particularly uncharacteristic set of events. It represent the culmination of centuries of abuses, made unusual only because then-modern industrial methods were applied, combined with then-modern propaganda techniques. Nazi Germany wasn’t a uniquely anti-Semitic movement representing an aberrant moment in German/European history; it was merely the latest and most focused version of attitudes that were already well-established and to a lesser extent, still are. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/210 "2010-09-21T00:24:38Z")
Oh, hating and killing Jews has a long and distinguished history. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/211 "2010-09-21T00:30:38Z")
The more I read on the subject the less I feel that Historical murder justifies present day murder or previous injustice allows for further injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/212 "2010-09-21T00:44:42Z")
That’s cool. What’s your proposed resolution that would allow Israel to live in a reasonable state of security? By the way, were you the one linking to the Finkleman video? I watched it; I disagree with him on a number of points, but he doesn’t outrage me to the level where I’d heap even mild personal scorn on him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/213 "2010-09-21T15:12:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There are three basic demands in play: > > 1 - control over Jerusalem; > > 2 - a Palestinian “right or return” to Israel proper; and > > 3 - control over all or substantially all of the WB. > > The Palestinains must realize that they will not, through negotiation, get all three. > Of these three, I suspect that: > > 1. No current or imaginable Israeli gov’t will ever voluntarily relinquish control over the city of Jerusalem. It’s a non-starter. > > 2. No Israeli gov’t will ever give an unrestricted Palestinian “right of return”. Though they may well compromise and provide payments to those actually dispossessed by the various wars; and > > 3. Every Israeli gov’t realizes the necessity of giving back substantially all of the WB, though they are not above slicing off this bit or that, whatever they can get away with. > > The Settlers make a compromise on point 3 harder than it otherwise would be. So there is ONE thing that Palestinians want that Israel MIGHT be willing to give them through negotiations, these settlers are making more difficult? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/214 "2010-09-21T15:15:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > Wait, did they implement the two state solution and not tell anyone? > > No, but Palestinians still aren’t Israeli citizens, so I don’t really understand why you’re asking. Because you said: “They’re a hostile foreign \*\*nation [/quote] under military occupation.” There is this tendendcy to cframe the palestinian situation as a “war” rather than an occupation or even just subjugation of indigenous population. The natives might be restless but they aren’t a nation against which istrael is waging war is it? Or is it? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/215 "2010-09-21T15:16:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > I think this bears repeating. Its not that israel does stufft that noone else in the world does, its that we tend to criticize people that do this stuff, unless its Israel. If its Israel then we say "oh, ermm, well, theyr eally shouldn’t do it and i don’t really support what they do but umm ermm, HEY LOOK OVER THERE, ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!!! Israel’s not as bad as THAT! > > I don’t agree. If by “we” you mean “official UN organizations”, Israel gets far more than its purportional share of opprobrium. By we, I mean the US of A. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/216 "2010-09-21T15:22:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > If your grandfather invested ehavily in IBM and then had his shares taken by the government then I would say that you shoulda been born a millionaire. > > Cool! So when can I expect my check? Did you notice teh “if”. Did your grandlfather invest heavily in IBM and then have his shares confiscated by the government? if not then what happened to those shares. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/217 "2010-09-21T15:26:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > No, but Palestinians still aren’t Israeli citizens, so I don’t really understand why you’re asking. > > Because you said: “They’re a hostile foreign **nation** under military occupation.” There is this tendendcy to cframe the palestinian situation as a “war” rather than an occupation or even just subjugation of indigenous population. The natives might be restless but they aren’t a nation against which istrael is waging war is it? Or is it? [/QUOTE] They’re not a country, but they’re a nation. There’s a definite shared concept of what a Palestinian is and isn’t. They’re a nation that wants a country. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/218 "2010-09-21T15:29:27Z")
[quote=“Malthus, post:206, topic:554116”] > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you seriously not reading what I wrote? > > I said in post 162 above: > > Posting links concerning anti-Arabism on the part of _Israelis_ is quite besides the point, since we agree it exists and is bad. > > Posting self-described “personal views” is also quite besides the point, as we both know that some people _believe_ that Israel treats Arabs as second-class citizens. > > The _facts_ are that, no doubt, there exist specific examples of discrimination - heck, the Israeli government’s own commissions of inquiry find that there are; but that does not justify the moniker ‘second class citizen’, any more than the fact some Jewish Israelis hate Arabs does. > > The fact that, when challenged on it, even those who are most het up about alleged offical discrimination choose such weak-ass examples as the forgetful lack of signs in Arabic in a new airport terminal, show that they got - very little. > > [From your own cite - the second from the bottom] Its not just personal private prejudice, like some woman accusing an arab man of rape because she thought he was Jewish when they had sex. Its codified in the law. How do you define second class citizen. Would you have called the blacks in the south during Jim Crow second class citizens? How about Philipinos in Kuwait? Or Malays in Malaysia? There is sytemic, endemic discrimination against arabs in Israel. To me, that is second class citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/219 "2010-09-21T15:32:40Z")
Don’t bother. You’re addressing someone who would rather throw out self-serving technicalities than address how to create a lasting peace. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/220 "2010-09-21T15:34:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Oh, hating and killing Jews has a long and distinguished history. Hating and killing generally has a long and distinguished history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=12)