# Ethics of Israeli settlements **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116 "2010-09-17T19:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/241 "2010-09-24T02:01:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you go back a little further you will see that I was in fact making (or at least beginning to make) the argument that there wasn’t all the current antisemitism you see in the middle east until Israel became an issue. There was plenty of antisemitism in the Middle East before Israel became an issue, though. Muslims don’t think that Jews killed their God the way Christians do, but they do think that Judaism is an inferior religion, and that Jews would be Muslims if they weren’t so stubborn. You’re trying to sugarcoat the antisemitism that did exist in the Middle East to make it seem that the current situation in the Middle East in regards to antisemitism is all Israel’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/242 "2010-09-24T04:05:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@suranyi](#): > > > > This is not limited to the Israeli situation by the way. Quebec insists that the Quebec people are a nation but not a country, hence they call their parliament the National Assembly. There is a subtle difference in meaning between the two terms. As it happens, the nation of the U.S. is the same as the country of the U.S., so Americans are not generally aware of the difference. Basically, a nation is a set of people but a country has sovereignty. > > > > [End of hijack.] > > So what youa re saying is the Palestinians are a “people” (I guess this is the term I would use everywhere you would use the term nation, when I think of nation, I think of United Nations) but Palestine is not a country? I guess I can go with that. Essentially, yes. See the post of **Hypnagogic Jerk** where he explains it in more detail than I did. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/243 "2010-09-24T15:39:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Didn’t we have a long-ass thread about that exact issue, and it turned out your position was based on a critical lack of information - i.e., that this was a plea deal in the face of an actual violent rape? I’m not going to derail this thread but I don’t think facts that you think were established were actually established. I’ll try to dig up the old thread and reply there. > [@](#): > > I define “second class citizen” as someone who has, legally, a second-class status. Thus, “jim crow” laws. It isn’t because some group in a country are bigoted. And you don’t think the Israeli laws discrimiante? You don’t think Israeli institutions discriminate? > [@](#): > > Not that there are not real and persistant problems - there are. Especially in the treatment of Negev’s Bedouin population, and continuing issues over equal access to education and water rights. But these real issues rarely make the news, or the blogs, because they are not “sexy” - they are exactly the sorts of problems that show up everywhere (my country of Canada for example). How about land rights? How about immigration and naturalization rights? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/244 "2010-09-24T15:42:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > > If you go back a little further you will see that I was in fact making (or at least beginning to make) the argument that there wasn’t all the current antisemitism you see in the middle east until Israel became an issue. > > There was plenty of antisemitism in the Middle East before Israel became an issue, though. Muslims don’t think that Jews killed their God the way Christians do, but they do think that Judaism is an inferior religion, and that Jews would be Muslims if they weren’t so stubborn. You’re trying to sugarcoat the antisemitism that did exist in the Middle East to make it seem that the current situation in the Middle East in regards to antisemitism is all Israel’s fault. Nope, no sugarcoating here, I never said it was a paradise, its kind of a straw man argument that also is besides the point. The level of antisemitism in the middle east before zionism and the aliyahs and the level of anti-semitism after zionism and the aliyahs is undisputable. You want to propose some other explanation for the sudden spike in anti-semitism in the area? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/245 "2010-09-24T15:45:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you don’t think the Israeli laws discrimiante? You don’t think Israeli institutions discriminate? What Israeli laws discriminate? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/246 "2010-09-24T16:59:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you don’t think the Israeli laws discrimiante? You don’t think Israeli institutions discriminate? I dunno. Cite some examples of discriminatory laws. Institutional discrimination - probably does exist, but again, that’s hardly a problem unique to Israel. > [@](#): > > How about land rights? How about immigration and naturalization rights? Land rights - I’ve already said, the Bedouin are an example of that. Other cases probably exist, on case-by-case basis. The issue is not whether Israel is free of problems and issues, but whether Arab Israelis are objectively “second class citizens”. The Right of Return I’ve debated elsewhere. Suffice it to say that, whatever its merits or lack thereof, it cannot make those already citizens “second class”. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/247 "2010-09-25T13:57:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > > > I’m not mistaken with my figures but I think that’s because we are at odds with the definition of what makes an illegal settlement illegal. In short according to international law **all settlements built on land that within the the area known as The Occupied Terrirories are illegal.** Where your figures differ from mine is where Israel gives permission for illegal settlements to be built in the face of international law. > > No, where we’re at odds with our figures, I think, is that you’re including in your figures Israelis living in East Jerusalem and I’m not. My numbers just include those settlers in the West Bank. What we need to be clear about here is that there are no legal settlements outside Israel. Anything built in the occupied territories is illegal in the eyes of international law. Obviously the hope (for the Israelis) is that these settlements will be incorporated into Israel propper at some point in the future…Incidently I found this article that some people may find interesting. > **['We were looking for a nice, peaceful place near Jerusalem'](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/25/west-bank-settlers)** > > If settlement building in the West Bank is meant to be on hold, why are Israeli buyers being offered new property on Palestinian land at knock-down prices, asks Rachel Shabi ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/248 "2010-09-25T14:14:08Z")
But, first, East Jerusalem isn’t part of the occupied territories, it’s part of Jerusalem. Second, if Jerusalem is violating “international law” with the settlements, are the “international police” going to come arrest them and take them to “international jail”? ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/249 "2010-09-25T14:23:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But, first, East Jerusalem isn’t part of the occupied territories, it’s part of Jerusalem. Second, if Jerusalem is violating “international law” with the settlements, are the “international police” going to come arrest them and take them to “international jail”? I totally agree that the system only works when there is a actual downside to being in breach of International law. Of course for some countries there are. E\>J is still occupied according to BTselem. [http://www.btselem.org/english/jerusalem/legal\_status.asp](http://www.btselem.org/english/jerusalem/legal_status.asp) [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qTslTUUF_Rs/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AHUBoAC4AOKAgwIABABGGUgWihIMA8=&rs=AOn4CLDkmN13g9El2GSFg9SvEq-c9RQNGQ "East Jerusalem clash turns deadly") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTslTUUF_Rs) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/250 "2010-09-25T14:38:27Z")
> [@](#): > > In June 1967, following the 1967 War, Israel annexed some 70 sq. km to the municipal boundaries of West Jerusalem, and imposed Israeli law there. . . .After the annexation, Israel conducted a census in these areas and granted permanent residency status to residents in the annexed areas present at the time the census was taken. Persons not present in the city for whatever reason forever lost their right to reside in Jerusalem. Permanent residents are permitted, if they wish and meet certain conditions, to receive Israeli citizenship. These conditions include swearing allegiance to the State, proving that they are not citizens of any other country, and showing some knowledge of Hebrew. Sounds like annexation to me, ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/251 "2010-09-25T16:52:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But, first, East Jerusalem isn’t part of the occupied territories, it’s part of Jerusalem. Second, if Jerusalem is violating “international law” with the settlements, are the “international police” going to come arrest them and take them to “international jail”? The responsibility is not to jail the looters, but to kill them. This duty falls firstly to the occupying power, i.e the Israeli Defense Forces. However I see nothing to suggest the duty rests exclusively with the occupying power. It may extend to any responsible adult. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/252 "2010-09-25T17:49:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > In June 1967, following the 1967 War, Israel annexed some 70 sq. km to the municipal boundaries of West Jerusalem, and imposed Israeli law there. . . .After the annexation, Israel conducted a census in these areas and granted permanent residency status to residents in the annexed areas present at the time the census was taken. Persons not present in the city for whatever reason forever lost their right to reside in Jerusalem. Permanent residents are permitted, if they wish and meet certain conditions, to receive Israeli citizenship. These conditions include swearing allegiance to the State, proving that they are not citizens of any other country, and showing some knowledge of Hebrew. > > Sounds like annexation to me, and they wouldn’t be the first invading power to use that phrase either. But seeing as we’re on the subject what exactly does annexation mean… Oh here we go. I don’t usually quote Wiki as it’s usually unreliable but in this case.. > [@](#): > > In the aftermath of the 1967 Six Day War, in which Israel had captured Jerusalem as well as the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights, Israel declared East and West Jerusalem one united city, incorporating the eastern part to form one municipality. In 1980 Israel passed the Jerusalem Law, which redeclared the unity of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, but did not declare its borders. In other words, Israel annexed East Jerusalem,[8][9][10] \*\* although most of the international community, including the U.S., don’t recognize the legitimacy of this action and accordingly most states locate their embassies in Tel-Aviv rather than in Jerusalem.[11] Security Council Resolution no. 478 of 1980 declared null and void any attempts by Israel to alter the status of Jerusalem.[12]\*\* ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/253 "2010-09-25T17:55:23Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > But, first, East Jerusalem isn’t part of the occupied territories, it’s part of Jerusalem. Second, if Jerusalem is violating “international law” with the settlements, are the “international police” going to come arrest them and take them to “international jail”? > > The responsibility is not to jail the looters, but to kill them. This duty falls firstly to the occupying power, i.e the Israeli Defense Forces. However I see nothing to suggest the duty rests exclusively with the occupying power. It may extend to any responsible adult. This is the second time you’ve said that looters are to be shot, and the other time you said “shot on sight”. Speaking of sight, can we have a cite for that? Not that I’m agreeing they are looters, but I’d still like to see the cite. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/254 "2010-09-26T01:52:07Z")
Why do you hesitate to conclude that we are discussing looters? Seems obvious. The duty arises from the occupier’s obligation to preserve property. I will recover the cites posted in an earlier thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/255 "2010-09-26T14:29:51Z")
So [Looting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looting) > [@](#): > > In many countries, even in Western democracies that otherwise ban the death penalty, extraordinary measures may be taken against looters, during times of crisis. Looters may be summarily shot by the police, army, or property owners. > … I think you agree this link is sufficient. Although not exhaustive, it is enough to give an opening to further research. Edit: see for example this article which is linked from the page: [Looting Law and Lawlessness](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=917440) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/256 "2010-09-26T14:46:42Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > So [Looting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looting) > > > [@](#): > > > > In many countries, even in Western democracies that otherwise ban the death penalty, extraordinary measures may be taken against looters, during times of crisis. Looters may be summarily shot by the police, army, or property owners. > > … > > I think you agree this link is sufficient. Although not exhaustive, it is enough to give an opening to further research. > > Edit: see for example this article which is linked from the page: [Looting Law and Lawlessness](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=917440) No, that is not sufficient. You said that an occupying power is required to shoot looters on sight. The wikipedia article only says that in many countries, looters “may” be shot by the police during times of crises. That’s Katrina, not the West Bank. And “may” is not “must”. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/257 "2010-09-26T20:55:37Z")
On the contrary, the West Bank is a stark example of where the looters are to be shot on sight. Looting is ongoing which is a sufficient test of a crisis. More to the point, the looters are entirely predatory and taking advantage of vulnerable people and property. There are no pressures of hunger or shelter acting on the looters, nor any other necessity, which might excuse looting. Granted, the point is made that there are cases where it is not appropriate to shoot the looters on sight, but this is not one. Take the time to review the links and satisfy yourself with further research on the issue. I note that you have not responded to my question regarding the looters. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/258 "2010-09-26T21:01:06Z")
Why don’t you quote the relevant section(s) of your cite that shows “looters are to be shot on sight.” I’m not interested in debating whether or not the settlers are looters. We can assume, for the sake of argument, that they are. Lay out your argument, back it up with quotes from your cites. Don’t just tell us to go read something. That’s not how debates work. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/259 "2010-09-26T21:15:39Z")
This does read as “I am not going to answer your question. Now I would like to you partake further and detailed research to answer mine.” The argument is laid out in a summary form in the previous post. I will take some time to show the supporting cites a little later. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/260 "2010-09-26T21:20:18Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > This does read as “I am not going to answer your question. Now I would like to you partake further and detailed research to answer mine.” No, I’m asking you to support your own assertion. I made no assertion about whether or not they were looters. That term is a legal term, and we’d have to get into a discussion about what Israeli law is. Since we’ve seen under what condition the Israelis consider certain settlements to be illegal, it’s quite clear they see most of them as legal. > [@](#): > > The argument is laid out in a summary form in the previous post. I will take some time to show the supporting cites a little later. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=14)