# Ethics of Israeli settlements **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116 "2010-09-17T19:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/81 "2010-09-18T16:55:33Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > > But this said, Palestinians in the occupied territories are not Israeli citizens, probably won’t ever be, and **Israel must deal with them fairly**. How it treats its Arab citizens is irrelevant to the question. > > (bolding mine) > > Why? They’re a hostile foreign nation under military occupation. When did they become a nation, and since when does military occupation justify anything? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/82 "2010-09-18T16:58:24Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think that the Israelis and Palestinians should negotiate a treaty that sets up an independent Palestinian state (or maybe two, one in Gaza and one in the West Bank) with clearly defined borders, and that once that happens, the Israelis should stay on their side of the border and the Palestinians stay on their side, and there you go. > > But until that happens, though, the place is under occupation, and the population is hostile. This raises security issues, and since Israel’s first obligation is to the safety and well being of its citizens, it should act in a way that protects Israeli safety first. If some of these methods, like curfews, roadblocks, limiting Palestinian entrance into Israel, limit Palestinian freedoms and are “unfair” to Palestinians, that’s unfortunate, but it would be more unfortunate if Israel abrogated its responsibilities to its own citizens. The occupation is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/83 "2010-09-18T17:12:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > I think that the Israelis and Palestinians should negotiate a treaty that sets up an independent Palestinian state (or maybe two, one in Gaza and one in the West Bank) with clearly defined borders, and that once that happens, the Israelis should stay on their side of the border and the Palestinians stay on their side, and there you go. > > > > But until that happens, though, the place is under occupation, and the population is hostile. This raises security issues, and since Israel’s first obligation is to the safety and well being of its citizens, it should act in a way that protects Israeli safety first. If some of these methods, like curfews, roadblocks, limiting Palestinian entrance into Israel, limit Palestinian freedoms and are “unfair” to Palestinians, that’s unfortunate, but it would be more unfortunate if Israel abrogated its responsibilities to its own citizens. > > The occupation is illegal. Legal cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/84 "2010-09-18T17:27:43Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > (bolding mine) > > > > Why? They’re a hostile foreign nation under military occupation. Sure, Israel shouldn’t commit genocide or anything like that, but why does it have an obligation to treat Palestinians as well as it treats his own people. > > Are you saying that Israel should treat Palestinians _un_fairly? Note that I didn’t define what “fairly” means. They shouldn’t treat them like Israeli citizens, because they aren’t Israeli citizens. But they are a civilian population under occupation, not criminals or a hostile army. I understand that the purpose of road blocks etc. is to ensure Israel’s security (which is a worthy goal), but it is Israel’s responsibility to make sure that it doesn’t prevent Palestinians from living their lives. And even if they **can** do something, doesn’t mean they **should** , if they eventually want to have peace. > > And I’m not claiming that Israel is a “racist state”. There certainly is racism in Israel, just like there is racism everywhere, but it’s not something that’s actively encouraged by the government. You’re not claiming Israel is a racist state, but other people in this thread are. They’ve raised the specter of apartheid; of ethnic cleansing. But what I’m proposing is that Israel acts in a way that best protects Israelis, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks. If they can do this without inconveniencing Palestinians, all the better. If it requires disruptions in Palestinian’s lives, that’s an unfortunate consequence. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/85 "2010-09-18T17:38:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > But until that happens, though, the place is under occupation, and the population is hostile. This raises security issues, and since Israel’s first obligation is to the safety and well being of its citizens, it should act in a way that protects Israeli safety first. If some of these methods, like curfews, roadblocks, limiting Palestinian entrance into Israel, limit Palestinian freedoms and are “unfair” to Palestinians, that’s unfortunate, but it would be more unfortunate if Israel abrogated its responsibilities to its own citizens. > > You are presuming that such treatment isn’t making the hostility and thus the danger much worse. When you manufacture a large population of people with nothing to lose and reasons to blame it on you, you’ll tend to see quite a lot of hatred and violence aimed at you. They have no reason not to be violent, after all. The Israelis I know say that, in general, their lives are better than ever. Terrorist attacks are way down, and they are more prosperous than ever. They don’t really have any incentive to change the status quo. One of the key engineers for our software team lives in Israel, although all the rest of us are in California. He likes it there. He’s as productive as any of us. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/86 "2010-09-18T17:40:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > (bolding mine) > > > > Why? They’re a hostile foreign nation under military occupation. > > When did they become a nation, and since when does military occupation justify anything? Rashid Khalidi claims that a sense of Palestinian national identity happened as early as the 1920s. I think that’s too early, and motivated at least in part by his political biases, but I’d say a sense of Palestinian nationhood developed by the 1960s at the latest, and that by the time of the First Intifada, almost all the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza identified themselves as “Palestinian”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/87 "2010-09-18T17:55:59Z")
Peace is in the best interests of the Israeli people. That which furthers peace is very likely advisable, that which hinders peace is almost certainly not. When seeking a rapprochment with a long-standing enemy, it is helpful not to start by peeing in his Cheerios. This remains true regardless of whether or not unsolicited Cheerio urination is sanctioned by international law, or not. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/88 "2010-09-18T17:56:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > > Are you saying that Israel should treat Palestinians _un_fairly? Note that I didn’t define what “fairly” means. They shouldn’t treat them like Israeli citizens, because they aren’t Israeli citizens. But they are a civilian population under occupation, not criminals or a hostile army. I understand that the purpose of road blocks etc. is to ensure Israel’s security (which is a worthy goal), but it is Israel’s responsibility to make sure that it doesn’t prevent Palestinians from living their lives. And even if they **can** do something, doesn’t mean they **should** , if they eventually want to have peace. > > > > And I’m not claiming that Israel is a “racist state”. There certainly is racism in Israel, just like there is racism everywhere, but it’s not something that’s actively encouraged by the government. > > You’re not claiming Israel is a racist state, but other people in this thread are. They’ve raised the specter of apartheid; of ethnic cleansing. But what I’m proposing is that Israel acts in a way that best protects Israelis, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks. If they can do this without inconveniencing Palestinians, all the better. If it requires disruptions in Palestinian’s lives, that’s an unfortunate consequence. How can it possibly be denied that Israel is a racist state when basic rights and privileges of citizenship are granted or denied based on nothing but race? Its entire _raison d’etre_ and official state mission is one of racial entitlement. I don’t think that the Jews should leave Israel or anything, but I do think the concept of a race-based state is outdated and unsustainable. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/89 "2010-09-18T18:17:35Z")
First of all, Jews, like Hispanics, may be of any race. Second, there are non-Jewish citizens of Israel, who have legally the same rights that Jewish citizens do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/90 "2010-09-18T18:27:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The occupation is illegal. > > Legal cite, please? Kofi Anan, while he was head of the UN, is on record as saying the occupation is illegal. I will note that while he certainly is an authority, he isn’t the only authority. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/91 "2010-09-18T18:37:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > First of all, Jews, like Hispanics, may be of any race. This is specious. Israel still distributes rights based on “Jewish” descendency. > [@](#): > > Second, there are non-Jewish citizens of Israel, who have legally the same rights that Jewish citizens do. Not really. Arab citizens don’t have a right to serve in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/92 "2010-09-18T18:40:43Z")
Incidentally, if the granting of privileges based on “Jewish” descent/idenity isn’t racist because “Jews can be of any race,” then I guess antisemitism can’t be racist either, right? By the same logic. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/93 "2010-09-18T19:15:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not really. Arab citizens don’t have a right to serve in the military. No, Arab citizens (with the exception of the Druze, who are Arabs, remember) aren’t required to serve in the military, but they may if they choose to, and Lt. Col. Amos Yarkoni, aka Abd el-Majid Hidr, a Bedouin, and founder of the Shaked Reconnaissance Battalion, actually won the Medal of Distinguished Service. He sort of became a national hero, and there was a joke going around about him and another commander, that went something like "Fuad the Jew and Amos the Bedouin (another famous commander at the time was Fuad Ben-Eliezar, and the joke is, there’s a Jew with an Arab name, and a Bedouin with a Jewish name.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/94 "2010-09-18T19:18:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Incidentally, if the granting of privileges based on “Jewish” descent/idenity isn’t racist because “Jews can be of any race,” then I guess antisemitism can’t be racist either, right? By the same logic. Right. They are bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/95 "2010-09-18T19:20:56Z")
Then what are the people who think that Jews deserve special rights? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/96 "2010-09-18T19:23:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Then what are the people who think that Jews deserve special rights? Poopy-pants? I don’t know. Why does there have to be a special term for that? Call them exclusionists or Zionists or Jewish Chauvinists. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/97 "2010-09-18T19:26:49Z")
I’ll stick with “racists.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/98 "2010-09-18T19:29:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ll stick with “racists.” That’s simply a strategy to demonize them by using a loaded term inaccurately. Not sure if it’s appeal to emotion or some other logical fallacy, but it is a logical fallacy. OTOH, we could just cut to the chase and call them Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/99 "2010-09-18T19:31:22Z")
It’s being accurate. It’s an ideology of racial entitlement. That’s racism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/100 "2010-09-18T19:35:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The occupation is illegal. Could you please cite the law that was broken? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=6)