# Ethics of Israeli settlements **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116 "2010-09-17T19:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/121 "2010-09-19T04:02:53Z")
Ah, Ilan Pappe. Well, he’s certainly a reliable source. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/122 "2010-09-19T04:10:18Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Show me where Israel applies genetic tests for citizenship. > > You do realize that anyone can convert to Judaism. Even an Arab. There are Arab Jews. . It is incredibly difficult to convert to Judaism… If you look into it you’ll see that. The idea that a Palestinian arab could convert is frankly laughable. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/123 "2010-09-19T04:23:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m rather curious if anyone in authority in Palestine has demonstrated comparable willingness by arresting and punishing those who facilitate suicide bombings. > > Seriously, I am curious about this. Have there been arrests made and such? As an example you could look at the six month unilateral cease fire imposed by Hamas. Hamas promised to stop rocket attacks and largely succeeded in an attempt to ease the stranglehold on Gaza… after 6 months they requested Israel open the crossings which it refused to do. The rocket attacks then restarted and Israel responded with Operation Cast Lead. > [@](#): > > Heh, and being a bit cynical, I can even imagine Israel offering the right of return to people who were born in what is now Israel prior to 1948. The youngest of them would be in their sixties, after all, well beyond typical childbearing years. If you were born outside of current Israeli borders - tough. Why would descendants have any such claim, anyway? I can’t ever see Israel allowing those refugees back, it would upset the demographic of the Jewish State, but I can see how those people and their children, would see Palestine as their home. In my opinion they have as much right to live there as a Jew from NYC or Eastern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/124 "2010-09-19T04:28:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Ah, Ilan Pappe. Well, he’s certainly a reliable source. If you’re trying to rubbish Pappe it would be nice to offer some evidence in support. Other than that old… self loathing Jew stuff that gets dragged out whenever he or Finkelstein talk about their country. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/125 "2010-09-19T04:47:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Ah, Ilan Pappe. Well, he’s certainly a reliable source. Who’s Ilan Pappe? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/126 "2010-09-19T05:04:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heh, and being a bit cynical, I can even imagine Israel offering the right of return to people who were born in what is now Israel prior to 1948. The youngest of them would be in their sixties, after all, well beyond typical childbearing years. If you were born outside of current Israeli borders - tough. Why would descendants have any such claim, anyway? Why should someone born in New York City with no Israeli national ancestry at all have any claim? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/127 "2010-09-19T13:00:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Heh, and being a bit cynical, I can even imagine Israel offering the right of return to people who were born in what is now Israel prior to 1948. The youngest of them would be in their sixties, after all, well beyond typical childbearing years. If you were born outside of current Israeli borders - tough. Why would descendants have any such claim, anyway? > > Why should someone born in New York City with no Israeli national ancestry at all have any claim? Because the Israeli government allows it, if that person is Jewish. Israel being a sovereign nation, it can set immigration policy as it chooses and I could imagine (but don’t expect to see anytime soon) them making a concession to allow people born before 1948 in what is now Israeli territory to return. Since this cohort is in their sixties or older, their numbers have dwindled somewhat and they are far less likely to produce more children after returning to Israel, so I don’t think they’d have a hugely significant demographic impact, except possibly to drive up health-care costs, as any influx of an aged population would. It doesn’t strike me as particularly bigoted to not allow the descendants (who were born after 1948, _not_ in Israeli territory) to enter. Frankly, I like the idea of there being someplace on Earth where a Jew will absolutely not be persecuted just for being a Jew. My peaceful nation of Canada invites relaxation, if not full-on complacency, but this is also that land of “[None is Too Many](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_Is_Too_Many:_Canada_and_the_Jews_of_Europe_1933-1948)” and some minor degree of vigilance is warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/128 "2010-09-19T15:05:16Z")
> [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > Ah, Ilan Pappe. Well, he’s certainly a reliable source. > > If you’re trying to rubbish Pappe it would be nice to offer some evidence in support. Other than that old… self loathing Jew stuff that gets dragged out whenever he or Finkelstein talk about their country. Well, like Pappe’s promotion of the Tantura massacre when no massacre occurred? Or his statement, in the introduction to “A History of Modern Palestine”: quote]My bias is apparent despite the desire of my peers that I stick to facts and the “truth” when reconstructing past realities. I view any such construction as vain and presumptuous. This book is written by one who admits compassion for the colonized not the colonizer; who sympathizes with the occupied not the occupiers, and sides with the workers, not the bosses. [/quote] God forbid a historian should take facts into account when writing. And his comment: > [@](#): > > Because of my ideology I understood documents I saw in the archives the way I understood them, and because of the documents in the archives I became more convinced in the ideological way I took. … Everybody in Israel and Palestine has an ideological platform. Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truth-seekers … We are all political. There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what’s happened. If you’re going to rely on the New Historians, rely on somebody like Benny Morris or Avi Shlaim. I don’t always agree with their conclusions, but at least they do real history, instead of just making things up in furtherance of their ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/129 "2010-09-19T15:09:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > Ah, Ilan Pappe. Well, he’s certainly a reliable source. > > Who’s Ilan Pappe? Communist historian, formerly at the University of Haifa, now at the University of Exeter. His studies focus on how terrible Israel is. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/130 "2010-09-19T17:45:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > By the way, artificial intelligences? I’m totally on board with enslaving them. You know what can happen. Didn’t you watch “Battlestar Galactica”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/131 "2010-09-19T17:50:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Heh, and being a bit cynical, I can even imagine Israel offering the right of return to people who were born in what is now Israel prior to 1948. The youngest of them would be in their sixties, after all, well beyond typical childbearing years. If you were born outside of current Israeli borders - tough. Why would descendants have any such claim, anyway? > > Why should someone born in New York City with no Israeli national ancestry at all have any claim? Because sovereign nations get to determine who can and cannot be a citizen. I don’t like that rule, either, but you and I don’t get votes on that issue. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/132 "2010-09-19T17:52:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It doesn’t strike me as particularly bigoted to not allow the descendants (who were born after 1948, _not_ in Israeli territory) to enter. Not considered in isolation, perhaps, but in the context of the country freely granting residency and citizenship to people who’ve never been there, and whose ancestors for millennia past haven’t either, solely on the basis of religion, does put that light on it. > [@](#): > > Frankly, I like the idea of there being someplace on Earth where a Jew will absolutely not be persecuted just for being a Jew. Frankly, is that a real issue anymore in the 21st century? When will it become appropriate for the special rules Israel claims for itself to be dropped? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/133 "2010-09-19T17:57:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Frankly, is that a real issue anymore in the 21st century? When will it become appropriate for the special rules Israel claims for itself to be dropped? Are you honestly saying that you cannot see any potential countries who might target Jews? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/134 "2010-09-19T18:00:05Z")
Potential ain’t real. Where do you see such a realistic possibility, and to what extent? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/135 "2010-09-19T18:10:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Potential ain’t real. > > Where do you see such a realistic possibility, and to what extent? Let’s see… Any country in the middle east where there are still more than three Jews. And don’t give me the BS about how Jews were treated well in the middle east until Israel was founded. They were treated slightly better than they were in Europe–which is like saying if you shoot eight cows out of ten, you’re treating them better than if you shot nine of them. Places where militant Islam is quickly spreading, such as Spain. Parts of Eastern Europe. Besides, Israel already saved many Jews… Ever heard of Ethiopia? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/136 "2010-09-19T18:18:23Z")
There’s a credible threat of a new Holocaust in _Spain_? 😃 Anybody else care to try? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/137 "2010-09-19T18:25:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There’s a credible threat of a new Holocaust in _Spain_? 😃 > > Anybody else care to try? I never said a new holocaust. But there certainly is a credible threat of people breaking windows, drawing swastikas on Jewish temples, or beating people for being Jewish. Spain is a place where this is more likely to happen, but it is happening all over the world already. Except Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/138 "2010-09-19T18:48:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > > And I’m not claiming that Israel is a “racist state”. There certainly is racism in Israel, just like there is racism everywhere, but it’s not something that’s actively encouraged by the government. > > You’re not claiming Israel is a racist state, but other people in this thread are. This said, I’ve just thought of something I read on this board recently, but I don’t remember the exact specifics. Apparently, spouses of Israeli citizens can apply for naturalization as Israeli citizens, unless the spouse in question is a Palestinian. Can someone refresh my memory on what the rule was? Because that would be an example of an actual law that is ethnically discriminatory or “racist”. Possibly justified, depending on the exact wording, but nevertheless racist. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/139 "2010-09-19T19:18:27Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > You’re not claiming Israel is a racist state, but other people in this thread are. > > This said, I’ve just thought of something I read on this board recently, but I don’t remember the exact specifics. Apparently, spouses of Israeli citizens can apply for naturalization as Israeli citizens, unless the spouse in question is a Palestinian. Can someone refresh my memory on what the rule was? Because that would be an example of an actual law that is ethnically discriminatory or “racist”. Possibly justified, depending on the exact wording, but nevertheless racist. Well, in 2003, after some Palestinians with Israeli identity cards were involved in terrorism, the Knesset passed the “The Nationality and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763-2003”, which basically did what you said…forbade Palestinians married to Israelis from getting Israeli visas. In 2005, it was amended to only apply to men between the ages of 18-35, and women between 18-25. In 2007, it was extended to cases where the spouse is a citizen of Lebanon, Syria, Iran or Iraq, all of which are categorized as “enemy states” under Israeli law. Here’s an article from earlier this year, because the policy was challenged in court: > **[Israel News: Updates on Israeli Politics, Security & Diplomacy | The...](http://www.jpost.com/israel-news)** > > Stay informed on Israel News: All for the latest updates, and breaking news on Israeli politics, culture, Israeli sports, Health, and Tech from the Jerusalem Post The Supreme Court hasn’t made a decision yet. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/140 "2010-09-19T19:23:13Z")
> [@BayouHazard](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > We also went to war to force Iraq out of Kuwait. Israel is the only country in the world that gets special rights to practice apartheid, ethnic cleansing and aggressive expansion with the full blessing and economic assistance of the west. > > Yep. On board with Dio here. > > Oh, as far as who made the settlements illegal? the U.N., you know, the same folks who resolved it was kosher for us to invade Iraq in 1992. > Israel never gets any military action directed against it because the US is a permanent member of the security council. So it really can violate international law with impunity. The general assembly doesn’t have the power to send troops to stop Israel from violating all the UN resolutions it violates. > > Oh, and as I’ve noted on this board before-what happens is this: the IDF comes and bulldozes a Palestinian’s property-or a lot of Palestinians’s property, claiming the Palestinians in question are either a security threat or built unpermitted houses(Palestinians are NEVER issued permits to build a house, so this is always true). They then keep the Palestinians off that property for three years by force. After three years, according to Persian law-still in force in Israel, the land is “unoccupied.” So the settlers take over “unoccupied” land. > > It is my fondest wish to see a free, prosperous Palestine, and a secure Israel… **with a heavily miltarized strip between, permanently occupied by international forces.** > > But if we made a permanent, fortified neutral zone, with violators of said neutral zone being responded to with lethal force impartially, why then the settlers couldn’t take any more territory. Oops. > I leave here a link to this article for you consideration: [Home - Media Monitors Network (MMN)](http://www.mediamonitors.net/michaelsladah&suleimaniajlouni1.html) The site you linked to is not credible: > [@](#): > > [2/3 of digital content creators do not fact-check, UNESCO survey reveals - Media Monitors Network (MMN)](http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/77698) > > Leaving aside the fact that we now know that Muslims had nothing to do with the Mossad-engineered attack on the WTC If you need a tinfoil hat to read the articles properly you can’t claim it as valid source. Sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=8)