# Ethics of Israeli settlements **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116 "2010-09-17T19:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/141 "2010-09-19T21:44:25Z")
Thanks for the information **Captain Amazing**. The article says the temporary legislation was due to expire on July 31; does anyone know if it’s been reextended? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/142 "2010-09-19T22:23:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Heh, and being a bit cynical, I can even imagine Israel offering the right of return to people who were born in what is now Israel prior to 1948. The youngest of them would be in their sixties, after all, well beyond typical childbearing years. If you were born outside of current Israeli borders - tough. Why would descendants have any such claim, anyway? > > Why should someone born in New York City with no Israeli national ancestry at all have any claim? I’m all on board with your questioning American aid to Israel. Just what right do you have to tell the Israelis how to run their country. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/143 "2010-09-19T22:24:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, in 2003, after some Palestinians with Israeli identity cards were involved in terrorism, the Knesset passed the “The Nationality and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763-2003”, which basically did what you said…forbade Palestinians married to Israelis from getting Israeli visas. I’m confused, perhaps you can help me out here. Firstly if ‘some’ Palestinians are involved in terrorism out of a population of millions how does that justify a policy that effects all Palestinians living in Israel? Wouldn’t that be called descrimination any where else? Wouldn’t that be group punishment? The population of Israel is made up from more than one group, so in an equal society why would an Arab need to marry a Jew to gain an identity card? What if a Palestinian living within Israel wanted to marry one living in Gaza would they be allowed to live to Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/144 "2010-09-19T22:29:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Frankly, is that a real issue anymore in the 21st century? In the interest of saving time, I may as well admit that I have no incentive to discuss any serious issue with you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/145 "2010-09-19T22:49:25Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Why should someone born in New York City with no Israeli national ancestry at all have any claim? > > I’m all on board with your questioning American aid to Israel. Just what right do you have to tell the Israelis how to run their country. I wasn’t. I was asking why **Bryan** saw a difference between offering right of return to descendants of displaced Palestinians and to Americans or Europeans with no Israeli national heritage at all. Having said that, I haven’t noticed you holding back your opinions on US politics very much. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/146 "2010-09-19T22:52:38Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I wasn’t. I was asking why Bryan saw a difference between offering right of return to descendants of displace Palestinians and Americans or Europeans with no Israeli national heritage at all. [/QUOTE] Because there is a smaller non-zero chance that an American moving to Israel will strap on an explosive vest and go for a stroll in a mall than there is for a displaced Palestinian to do the same thing? Just a thought. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/147 "2010-09-19T23:00:38Z")
> [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > [ > I’m confused, perhaps you can help me out here. I don’t fully understand your questions here. I’ll take them one at a time. > [@](#): > > Firstly if ‘some’ Palestinians are involved in terrorism out of a population of millions how does that justify a policy that effects all Palestinians living in Israel? Wouldn’t that be called descrimination any where else? Wouldn’t that be group punishment? Well, first of all, the law doesn’t really affect Palestinians living in Israel (except for those who are in Israel married to an Israeli citizen on an existing visa who are trying to get them renewed. There have some accusations that the government has been refusing to renew their visas. The law applies to Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, and Iranians trying to get Israeli visas based on their marriage to an Israeli. Is it discriminatory? Yes, which is why it’s being brought up before the Supreme Court, although the Israeli Supreme Court tends to be deferential when it comes to security issues. > [@](#): > > The population of Israel is made up from more than one group, so in an equal society why would an Arab need to marry a Jew to gain an identity card? An Arab doesn’t have to marry a Jew to get an identity card. So I don’t understand this question. > [@](#): > > What if a Palestinian living within Israel wanted to marry one living in Gaza would they be allowed to live to Israel? When you say “a Palestinian living within Israel”, what do you mean? Do you mean a Palestinian living in Israel on a work visa? Or do you mean an Israeli Arab (who isn’t a Palestinian)? Under the law as I understand it, keeping in mind that I’m not an Israeli immigration attorney, the Israeli Arab can live In Israel or outside of Israel, because he’s an Israeli citizen, but his Palestinian wife wouldn’t be granted a visa to live in Israel until she’s at least 25. In terms of the Palestinian with the green card and his wife, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/148 "2010-09-19T23:26:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Having said that, I haven’t noticed you holding back your opinions on US politics very much. And I’ve been called on it. However I feel that US politics affects my life and the future of my world far more than the little irritation that is occuring on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/149 "2010-09-19T23:29:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > Frankly, is that a real issue anymore in the 21st century? > > In the interest of saving time, I may as well admit that I have no incentive to discuss any serious issue with you. The question, like almost all on this board, was asked of \*anyone \*interested in providing a thoughtful answer. Now get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/150 "2010-09-19T23:31:26Z")
Thank’s for taking the time to answer those. I’m still a bit confused. Wouldn’t the majority of Israeli Arabs not have considered themselves to have been Palestinian or at least being from Palestinian linage? Obviously not all but a large majority? Would these same people have been able to keep some sort of dual nationality in the same way as say Jewish immigrants from the USA are? Do the cards given to Israelies differ based on their ethic group? Could I tell who was a Jew and who was not from their I.D? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/151 "2010-09-19T23:48:20Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > I wasn’t. I was asking why Bryan saw a difference between offering right of return to descendants of displace Palestinians and Americans or Europeans with no Israeli national heritage at all. Because there is a smaller non-zero chance that an American moving to Israel will strap on an explosive vest and go for a stroll in a mall than there is for a displaced Palestinian to do the same thing? [/quote] So you’re saying they make assumptins about moral character based on nothing but race? Why would a person inclined to a suicide bombing become more likely to do it if they were citizens? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/152 "2010-09-20T00:16:55Z")
[quote=“shamblesmaybe, post:150, topic:554116”] Thank’s for taking the time to answer those. I’m still a bit confused. Ok. I’ll do my best > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t the majority of Israeli Arabs not have considered themselves to have been Palestinian or at least being from Palestinian linage? Obviously not all but a large majority? Probably most would, but they’re Israeli citizens. Usually when people use the term “Palestinian”, (like in this law, for instance) they’re using it to refer to either those people who live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip or those Arabs who fled what’s now Israel at the time Israel was founded. > [@](#): > > Would these same people have been able to keep some sort of dual nationality in the same way as say Jewish immigrants from the USA are? There’s not really a Palestinian citizenship as such. The people of the West Bank were Jordanian citizens, but in 1988, the Jordanian government stripped them of their citizenship. Israel issues identity cards to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, but an Israeli citizen wouldn’t be authorized one of those (and probably wouldn’t want one). The Palestinian National Authority issues passports, but I don’t think any Israeli has ever asked for one, and I don’t know what the PNA would do if they did. > [@](#): > > Do the cards given to Israelies differ based on their ethic group? Could I tell who was a Jew and who was not from their I.D? Until 2005, Israeli identity cards included ethnicity, but they stopped doing that in that year. You’d be able to tell who was an Israeli from who was a Palestinian based on their cards, of course. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/153 "2010-09-20T00:23:40Z")
Thank’s again. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/154 "2010-09-20T02:06:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@xtisme](#): > > > > Because there is a smaller non-zero chance that an American moving to Israel will strap on an explosive vest and go for a stroll in a mall than there is for a displaced Palestinian to do the same thing? > > So you’re saying they make assumptins about moral character based on nothing but race? I expect it’s more of a cost-benefit analysis based on statistics, actually. In any event, a American Jew moving to Israel is likely to have a much lesser effect on the long-term Jewishness of Israel than a non-Jew from Palestine… or a non-Jew from the U.S., for that matter. There is a not-insignificant incentive, supported by extensive historical evidence, to maintain a Jewish-majority population. Besides, as before, Israel can set its immigration policies as it chooses, as can any nation. Heck, even Canada was free (and still is, I guess) to set a “none is too many” policy, even if it was morally reprehensible. So if you want to know why Israel has immigration preferences… well… they _want_ to have immigration preferences, since they serve perceived self-interests. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/155 "2010-09-20T02:45:35Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] So you’re saying they make assumptins about moral character based on nothing but race? [/QUOTE] I don’t know about ‘moral character’, but I’d say from a risk analysis standpoint, the likelihood of an American immigrating to Israel and then going all mad bomber is going to be substantially less than a Palestinian returning after years of self-exile. After all, the Palestinians don’t exactly have no basis at all for years of anger and frustration, as well as the disappointed hopes of seeing the Jews pushed back into the sea or wiped out (not that the dreams of the Palestinians getting the whole shooting match were ever very realistic). > [@](#): > > Why would a person inclined to a suicide bombing become more likely to do it if they were citizens? Depends on the citizen. Recall McVeigh? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/156 "2010-09-20T14:18:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The occupation is illegal. > > Could you please cite the law that was broken? It looks like **Shamblesmaybe** made an attempt to answer this question in another thread: > [@Diogenes, go take a nap](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-go-take-a-nap/554306/51): > > > [@Diogenes, go take a nap](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-go-take-a-nap/554306/45): > > > > Really? I’ve asked twice in that other thread for the law being broken, and you have yet to respond. > > How’s this for a quick start? > > > [@](#): > > > > The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. > > From > > [http://www.btselem.org/english/settlements/international\_law.asp](http://www.btselem.org/english/settlements/international_law.asp) But, as has also been pointed out in that thread, that particular ruling forbids the _government_ from establishing settlements, not private citizens. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/157 "2010-09-20T14:36:36Z")
I see where this is going. But let’s just look at this for a second. If it isn’t the governments responsibility to ensure that its citizens abide by international law then whose responsibility is it? Certainly if individuals among the private citizens of Gaza take to firing rockets into Israel, then Hamas is blamed. I think it is fair to hold a government responsible for the actions of its private citizens if it is not doing anything to prevent their actions… or as in this case, is actually encouraging their actions. Anyway, for those with a open mind to all this. [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2108727675104362672#docid=-5935337125702937135](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2108727675104362672#docid=-5935337125702937135) Dragged from the deck of another thread I know but worth a watch. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/158 "2010-09-20T15:06:28Z")
> [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > I see where this is going. But let’s just look at this for a second. If it isn’t the governments responsibility to ensure that its citizens abide by international law then whose responsibility is it? Anybody who’s willing to commit military force to the area, approved by the U.N. That’s the beauty of international law - it looks pretty but nobody has to actually do anything about it unless they really really want to, and even if they really really want to, the U.N. can always stop them. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/159 "2010-09-20T16:41:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But, as has also been pointed out in that thread, that particular ruling forbids the _government_ from establishing settlements, not private citizens. But the government has done much to promote and facilitate them, has it not? You could make a Brickerian hairsplitting technical argument that they’re not violating their own laws, perhaps. But would it convince anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/160 "2010-09-20T16:43:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I don’t know about ‘moral character’, but I’d say from a risk analysis standpoint, the likelihood of an American immigrating to Israel and then going all mad bomber is going to be substantially less than a Palestinian returning after years of self-exile. We’re all out of Baruch Goldsteins, I take it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=9)