# Ethics of Israeli settlements **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116 "2010-09-17T19:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/161 "2010-09-20T16:48:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > But, as has also been pointed out in that thread, that particular ruling forbids the _government_ from establishing settlements, not private citizens. > > But the government has done much to promote and facilitate them, has it not? > > You could make a Brickerian hairsplitting technical argument that they’re not violating their own laws, perhaps. But would it convince anyone else? Probably not, but it will will give succor to those who would support the settlements no matter what. Who holds the deeds to those lands, and in what country(s) do they reside? It seems that laws involving illegal immigration and trespassing might be involved. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/162 "2010-09-20T17:24:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > But the government has done much to promote and facilitate them, has it not? > > > > You could make a Brickerian hairsplitting technical argument that they’re not violating their own laws, perhaps. But would it convince anyone else? > > Probably not, but it will will give succor to those who would support the settlements no matter what. Who holds the deeds to those lands, and in what country(s) do they reside? It seems that laws involving illegal immigration and trespassing might be involved. Generally, I believe, the land is owned by the Israeli government. Authorized settlements, at least, have to be built on either state land or private Israeli-owned land and be granted government authorization. Illegal settlements, of course, are another question. ---
**Author:** ![shamblesmaybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@shamblesmaybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shamblesmaybe)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/163 "2010-09-20T17:35:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Generally, I believe, the land is owned by the Israeli government. Authorized settlements, at least, have to be built on either state land or private Israeli-owned land and be granted government authorization. Illegal settlements, of course, are another question. But when people talk about settlements being a problem they are always refering to illegal settlements built in the Occupied Territories, no one is trying to tell Israel what it can build on its own land. Seeing as around 500,000 settlers are living illegally on land that is not part of Israel that’s quite a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/164 "2010-09-20T17:44:45Z")
> [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > But when people talk about settlements being a problem they are always refering to illegal settlements built in the Occupied Territories, no one is trying to tell Israel what it can build on its own land. Seeing as around 500,000 settlers are living illegally on land that is not part of Israel that’s quite a problem. Easy solution: the 500,000 declare sovereignty and form the nation of New Isreal or East Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/165 "2010-09-20T18:20:04Z")
> [@shamblesmaybe](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > Generally, I believe, the land is owned by the Israeli government. Authorized settlements, at least, have to be built on either state land or private Israeli-owned land and be granted government authorization. Illegal settlements, of course, are another question. > > But when people talk about settlements being a problem they are always refering to illegal settlements built in the Occupied Territories, no one is trying to tell Israel what it can build on its own land. Seeing as around 500,000 settlers are living illegally on land that is not part of Israel that’s quite a problem. No, people are complaining about the authorized settlements in the territories too, not just the illegal ones. And your numbers are wrong. There are about 267,000 West Bank settlers, not 500,000. And most of the 267,000 settlers live in authorized settlements. Very few settlers live in unauthorized or illegal settlements. Again, in terms of definitions, an authorized settlement is one that’s built on Israeli government land in the West Bank with the prior approval of the Israeli government, an unauthorized settlement is one that’s built on Israeli government land in the West Bank without the approval of the Israeli government, and an illegal settlement is one that’s built on private Palestinian land in the West Bank without the approval of the Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/166 "2010-09-20T19:14:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Being a settler is not illegal, and so far, no-one has produced anything but argument by assertion that it is. > > It is, in my opinion, unethical except in the area of Jerusalem itself - and I’m generally an Israeli supporter. … > > I make the exception for those in Jerusalem itself because no-one can seriously believe that Israel would voluntarily give up control over Jerusalem. Why is settlement activity any less unethical in Jerusalem? Is the notion that you can achieve peace without some sort of compromise on Jerusalem? If we can’t achieve peace without Jerusalem and Israel is not going to compromise on jerusalem then why is settlement activity in the Wb any more of an onstructin to peace than jerusalem construction? Israel may not want to relinquish control of jerusalem to the palestinian but perhaps they can relinquich control to the Tibetans of something. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/167 "2010-09-20T19:26:14Z")
Because Jerusalem is part of Israel and the capital of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/168 "2010-09-20T19:27:21Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Ya know, the big problem here is that Israel is too nice for it’s own good, in a very bloody sort of way. They have had the capability to pretty much exterminate the Palestinians for decades now. If they had committed genocide, by now few would give a damn or blame modern day Israel. Well, their neighbors would, but their neighbors just lost a war with Israel so it’s not like there was a lot of goodwill there anyway. If they had committed genocide, there would not have been peace with Egypt, they would not have had the overwhelming US support they have enjoyed over the decades. there would have been perpetual war and Israel might not exist right now. When the Ottomans killed the Armenians, they were not surrounded by majority Armenian countries, people might no forget quite so easily if they were. > [@](#): > > Lets look at other genocides for example. Nazi’s being the infamous one, but how many people seriously hold Germany as it is today responsible for that? That’s because there is regime change. If the nazi party was still in power we might not forget so easily. > [@](#): > > There are some diplomatic issues around Japan’s WWII actions towards conquered civilians, but mostly they’ve been forgiven/forgotten about. You have GOT to be kidding me. There is stil a great amount of antipathy towards Japan in Asia. When North Korea got the nuke, people weren’t worried about them using it on China or Korea, they were worried about north korea nuking Japan. Aside from the juxtaposition of a Jewish genocide of Palestinian after they experienced the holocaust, it would have made their future FAR more uncertain. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/169 "2010-09-20T19:48:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > Being a settler is not illegal, and so far, no-one has produced anything but argument by assertion that it is. > > > > It is, in my opinion, unethical except in the area of Jerusalem itself - and I’m generally an Israeli supporter. … > > > > I make the exception for those in Jerusalem itself because no-one can seriously believe that Israel would voluntarily give up control over Jerusalem. > > Why is settlement activity any less unethical in Jerusalem? Is the notion that you can achieve peace without some sort of compromise on Jerusalem? If we can’t achieve peace without Jerusalem and Israel is not going to compromise on jerusalem then why is settlement activity in the Wb any more of an onstructin to peace than jerusalem construction? I gave my reasons - because I think being a settler is unethical because one reasonably ought to know it stands in the way of a peace settlement. Israel will never, in my opinion, relinquish control over its capital city, regardless of the settlers’ existance or not, and IMO it is unreasonable to expect it to. Therefore, being a “settler” in that particular location is not standing in the way of a peace settlement. I suppose if the Palestinians are equally set on that issue, then being a settler anywhere doesn’t matter and for the same reason - but I seriously doubt this is the case. There are three basic demands in play: 1 - control over Jerusalem; 2 - a Palestinian “right or return” to Israel proper; and 3 - control over all or substantially all of the WB. The Palestinains must realize that they will not, through negotiation, get all three. Of these three, I suspect that: 1. No current or imaginable Israeli gov’t will ever voluntarily relinquish control over the city of Jerusalem. It’s a non-starter. 2. No Israeli gov’t will ever give an unrestricted Palestinian “right of return”. Though they may well compromise and provide payments to those actually dispossessed by the various wars; and 3. Every Israeli gov’t realizes the necessity of giving back substantially all of the WB, though they are not above slicing off this bit or that, whatever they can get away with. The Settlers make a compromise on point 3 harder than it otherwise would be. > [@](#): > > Israel may not want to relinquish control of jerusalem to the palestinian but perhaps they can relinquich control to the Tibetans of something. I’m guessing there is something missing in this sentence. I assume you mean that Israel ought to hand over control of Jerusalem to some third party agency. This is a non-starter as well - there are none which have acumulated enough trust in that part of the world. Certainly not the UN - their performance during '67 have sorta immunized the Israelis against trusting them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/170 "2010-09-20T19:49:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > We also went to war to force Iraq out of Kuwait. Israel is the only country in the world that gets special rights to practice apartheid, ethnic cleansing and aggressive expansion with the full blessing and economic assistance of the west. > > Israel doesn’t practice apartheid, ethnic cleansing and aggressive expansion, and I’m pretty sure you know that. Well it engages in its own form of racial oppression. Its not as pronounced or severe as it was in South Africa, Serbia or the Mongol Empire but its hard to argue that there isn’t legal and institutional discrimination against Palestinians. For examples laws like: [Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law) seem discriminatory. My understanding is that Israeli arabs are second class citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/171 "2010-09-20T19:56:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No other country in the world gets away with the garbage that Israel gets away with. No other country in the world receives full throated support for institutionalized racism, racial entitlement and racial discrimination the way Israel does. I think this bears repeating. Its not that israel does stufft that noone else in the world does, its that we tend to criticize people that do this stuff, unless its Israel. If its Israel then we say "oh, ermm, well, theyr eally shouldn’t do it and i don’t really support what they do but umm ermm, HEY LOOK OVER THERE, ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!!! Israel’s not as bad as THAT! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/172 "2010-09-20T20:02:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its not as pronounced or severe as it was in South Africa, Serbia or the Mongol Empire but its hard to argue that there isn’t legal and institutional discrimination against Palestinians. > > For examples laws like: [Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law) > > seem discriminatory. > > My understanding is that Israeli arabs are second class citizens. Of course there’s discrimination against Palestinians, but how are Israeli Arabs “second class citizens”? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/173 "2010-09-20T20:03:12Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > There certainly is racism in Israel, just like there is racism everywhere, Not everywhere: [Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law) > [@](#): > > but it’s not something that’s actively encouraged by the government. See above. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/174 "2010-09-20T20:04:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > Israel doesn’t practice apartheid, ethnic cleansing and aggressive expansion, and I’m pretty sure you know that. > > Well it engages in its own form of racial oppression. > > Its not as pronounced or severe as it was in South Africa, Serbia or the Mongol Empire but its hard to argue that there isn’t legal and institutional discrimination against Palestinians. > > For examples laws like: [Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law) > > seem discriminatory. > > My understanding is that Israeli arabs are second class citizens. While I don’t like that particular law, I can certainly see why a state that is at war with, or having a prolonged conflict with, persons from a particular geographic area or state may not wish to grant automatic citizenship to persons from that area or state. I disagree with the description of Arab Israelis as “second class citizens”. There is no doubt that they can face discrimination from some in the majority population. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/175 "2010-09-20T20:04:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > > > But this said, Palestinians in the occupied territories are not Israeli citizens, probably won’t ever be, and **Israel must deal with them fairly**. How it treats its Arab citizens is irrelevant to the question. > > (bolding mine) > > Why? They’re a hostile foreign nation under military occupation. Sure, Israel shouldn’t commit genocide or anything like that, but why does it have an obligation to treat Palestinians as well as it treats his own people. If you’re making claims, as has been made by some people in this thread, that Israel is a racist state, then the way it treats its Arab citizens becomes enormously relevant, because then you’re looking at the way it treats Israeli citizens of one group to the way it treats Israeli citizens of another group, vs, the way it treats Israeli citizens as compared to foreigners. Wait, did they implement the two state solution and not tell anyone? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/176 "2010-09-20T20:07:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Israel will never, in my opinion, relinquish control over its capital city, regardless of the settlers’ existance or not, and IMO it is unreasonable to expect it to. Therefore, being a “settler” in that particular location is not standing in the way of a peace settlement. You’re omitting any mention of the views of the other side that would have to agree for it constitute either peace or a settlement. You cannot have a negotiation, in any situation anywhere, that starts with anything being unilaterally declared non-negotiable. Doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/177 "2010-09-20T20:08:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait, did they implement the two state solution and not tell anyone? No, but Palestinians still aren’t Israeli citizens, so I don’t really understand why you’re asking. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/178 "2010-09-20T20:12:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > No other country in the world gets away with the garbage that Israel gets away with. No other country in the world receives full throated support for institutionalized racism, racial entitlement and racial discrimination the way Israel does. > > I think this bears repeating. Its not that israel does stufft that noone else in the world does, its that we tend to criticize people that do this stuff, unless its Israel. If its Israel then we say "oh, ermm, well, theyr eally shouldn’t do it and i don’t really support what they do but umm ermm, HEY LOOK OVER THERE, ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!!! Israel’s not as bad as THAT! I don’t agree. If by “we” you mean “official UN organizations”, Israel gets far more than its purportional share of opprobrium. > [@](#): > > In recent years, the Middle East was the subject of 76% of country-specific UNGA resolutions, 100% of the Human Rights Council resolutions, 100% of the Commission on the Status of Women resolutions, 50% of reports from the World Food Program, 6% of Security Council resolutions and 6 of the 10 Emergency sessions. Of note is Resolution 3379 (1975) stating that “zionism is racism”; it was rescinded in 1991. These decisions, passed with the support of the OIC countries, invariably criticize Israel for its treatment of Palestinians. This degree of criticism has been qualified by some as excessive. In particular, the UNHRC was widely criticized in 2007 for failing to condemn other human rights abusers besides Israel. > **[Israel, Palestine, and the United Nations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel,_Palestine,_and_the_United_Nations)** > > Articles relating to the relationship of Israel and Palestine with the United Nations include: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/179 "2010-09-20T20:15:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > So there’s no such thing as race, but Israel is racist. > > > > Right. > > It’s perfectly possible to be bigoted against things that don’t exist. I’ve run into people who think that we should enslave or kill any aliens, artificial intelligences or uplifted animals, for example. You’ve read the uplift wars haven’t you. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116/180 "2010-09-20T20:16:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > Israel will never, in my opinion, relinquish control over its capital city, regardless of the settlers’ existance or not, and IMO it is unreasonable to expect it to. Therefore, being a “settler” in that particular location is not standing in the way of a peace settlement. > > You’re omitting any mention of the views of the other side that would have to agree for it constitute either peace or a settlement. You cannot have a negotiation, in any situation anywhere, that starts with anything being unilaterally declared non-negotiable. Doesn’t work. No, you are misreading what I’m writing. I’m stating it as my opinion that Israel would never agree to this concession. From what I know of Israelis and Israel, they won’t. Of course you can have a negotiation where certain things are declared non-negotiable. The other side may make you pay for that, of course, by increasing their demands in other areas - but the Palestinians are starting out with a lousy hand, and one that is getting worse and not better over time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethics-of-israeli-settlements/554116.md?page=10)