# Ethnic Composition of Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477 "2011-06-06T04:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/41 "2011-06-08T15:24:50Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > As Bartman points out above, the official statement of the church on the subject has never been disavowed. Maybe a new catchphrase for the church. “Come join our divinely led church, we’re no worse than the rest of the world.” What you mean that 1951 thing? It’s been disavowed over and over. Here’s Bruce R. McConkie–who said rather a lot of awful things–on the subject in 1978: > [@](#): > > There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things. . . . All I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness, and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more. It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year [1978]. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the gentiles. > > (Bruce R. McConkie, “All Are Alike unto God,” an address to a Book of Mormon Symposium for Seminary and Institute teachers, Brigham Young University, 18 August 1978, as quoted in Jessie L. Embry, Black Saints in a White Church (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1994), 34, as cited online by Juliann Reynolds in an article at [Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Mormonism 101/Chapter 16 - FAIR](http://www.fairlds.org/apol/morm201/m20116.html.)) I guess if we’re always ignoring the topic of racism and history, we don’t have organizations like [Genesis](http://www.ldsgenesisgroup.org/) or blacklds.org, or talks at intellectual-type conferences like [The LDS Church and the Race Issue](http://www.blacklds.org/mauss) or [The Black Myth.](http://www.blacklds.org/black_myth). Darius Gray and Marvin Perkins haven’t been popular speakers with their [Blacks in the Scriptures](http://blacksinthescriptures.com/) material, and there hasn’t been any [historical fiction written.](http://www.amazon.com/More-River-Cross-Standing-Promises/dp/1573456292) Yes, we’ve had our problems. We still have them. But we’re working on it. And yes, I definitely think we have more interracial couples than average. Did you want a scientific survey of my family and ward, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/42 "2011-06-09T01:02:22Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Did you want a scientific survey of my family and ward, or something? Well the church as a whole. You know some proof that as you put it, “Mormons marry interracially more often than the average citizen.” Because my experience is that that is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/43 "2011-06-09T03:36:15Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > What you mean that 1951 thing? It’s been disavowed over and over. Here’s Bruce R. McConkie–who said rather a lot of awful things–on the subject in 1978: OK, we can do Clintonesque. “That 1951 thing” was an official proclamation by the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but we can call it “that 1951 thing” if that helps it sound more trivial. And, “that 1951 thing” has not been \*officially \*disavowed. The Mormon church has never published an official statement which states that the souls of blacks were really just as valiant in the preexistence, just that it had reached the time which blacks could hold the priesthood, the possibility of them someday getting it was a concept which had never been completely ruled out so the 1978 statement did not automatically change all previous teachings. A full house beats three of a kind and three of a kind beats an ace or jack high garbage. Mormonism has traditionally accepted the pronouncements of the prophets and apostles as the literal word of God. If this were still the case, then McConkie’s statement would be a church disavowal. However, irrefutable proof has surfaced that prophets and apostles have preached doctrine which is completely batty. There are many active Mormons who are ready to jettison fundamental teachings of even Joseph Smith, Jr (the founder) as “something which someone got carried away with.” So, to deal with this, the church instituted the policy that no longer would it be that the prophet (the ace) speaks for the lord, he needs to be sustained by his counselors as the First Presidency (three of a kind) and best is to have the proclamation agreed to by the Twelve Apostles (which give a full house). If you reject an apostle’s writings as unofficial in once instance, you can’t go back and claim another proclamation as genuine. That’s cherry picking. > [@](#): > > I guess if we’re always ignoring the topic of racism and history, we don’t have (. . . ) Yes, and we also have an internet full of apologist bloggers who spin the past and posters who say > [@](#): > > The one about black people and the pre-mortal existence was a particularly pernicious one, and serves as a spectacular example of why speculation can be harmful. The funny, and sad, thing is that it arose from a non-racist instinct; people couldn’t figure out why blacks were not allowed to have the priesthood (since they were clearly perfectly nice people and not personally unworthy), and came up with a “reason” that could be attributed to behavior before birth. Yes, Bruce R. McConkie endorsed it himself, in his book Mormon Doctrine, which is not in fact an encyclopedia of doctrine, and never was, and could more appropriately been titled The gospel according to Bruce R. McConkie. After the 1978 revelation, which was an enormous relief to LDS members, McConkie said: which, in addition to not being factually correct, is a clever way of sweeping away the horrible racism for over a hundred years by prophets and apostles. ---
**Author:** ![mamaswami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@mamaswami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamaswami)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/44 "2013-03-13T02:22:34Z")
I am a descendant of original Mormon pioneers, including those in America who helped found the religion. Therefore I found it very curious when I did a genetic test and found a segment of African ancestry. I know I am not alone in having this as part of my ancestry – apparently quite a few persons of Mormon heritage who are descended from the original founders have similar racial admixture. This is most likely to be a common factor among those who have American Mormon ancestry from pioneer stock. There is a code word for Mormons in the study of genetics – “CEU” – I forget what it stands for, but the U is for Utah. Below you can find a genetic ‘portrait’ of a sampled group of persons who descend from Mormons, or their immediate relatives who don’t practice the faith, but still share the genes. Just download the PNG for Admixture CEU30\_12. You can then compare it to England, Denmark, Sweden and other countries where Mormons are ‘presumed’ to solely originate from… > **[Google Drive: Sign-in](https://accounts.google.com/v3/signin/identifier?dsh=S906813905%3A1688086576733096&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F0B7JDEoCgzRKeMzgzOWVhNjUtZWIxYy00MjI0LTlkYTMtNGNkZjhmMmI3NjQz%2Fedit%3Fpli%3D1&followup=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F0B7JDEoCgzRKeMzgzOWVhNjUtZWIxYy00MjI0LTlkYTMtNGNkZjhmMmI3NjQz%2Fedit%3Fpli%3D1&ifkv=AeDOFXjGwthz5ricPOapqDKsiBeOau9K84b_SuEKkiLjTSbS8NYSclK84nqcqKVtsG64NnSiG7utMA&osid=1&passive=1209600&service=wise&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin)** > > Access Google Drive with a Google account (for personal use) or Google Workspace account (for business use). ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/45 "2013-03-13T04:01:01Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Yep, the Church leadership is overwhelmingly white and American, though there are some South Americans and Europeans in the mix. This makes more sense if you know how the leadership operates; it’s very important to them to make sure that local spots are filled first, and international spots with ‘surplus’ (so to speak). \ It also makes sense if you consider blacks couldn’t be priests in the LDS until 1978, and that dark skin was a sign of a curse, that black folk might not often be interested in becoming Mormon. In fact, I’d say it’s more doctrinal than geographical at least in the U.S. why blacks are not interested in the religion. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/46 "2013-03-13T04:07:01Z")
Didn’t realize this thread was so old, AND I had already responded to it. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/47 "2013-03-13T04:23:13Z")
Mormon wards all sponsor Boy Scout troops. Then the BSA authorities told the Mormon church that if they don’t allow blacks they cannot participate in the program, god then told to the prophet to allow blacks. No cite. Possibly it is hearsay from anti-Mormons. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/48 "2013-03-13T16:03:18Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > Mormon wards all sponsor Boy Scout troops. Then the BSA authorities told the Mormon church that if they don’t allow blacks they cannot participate in the program, god then told to the prophet to allow blacks. No cite. Possibly it is hearsay from anti-Mormons. I hadn’t heard that one. The line I’ve heard from both Mormons and “anti-Mormons” is that other colleges refused to play basketball against BYU. Or that the IRS was somehow using the issue to threaten the church’s tax-exempt status. Also no cite, entirely hearsay. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/49 "2013-03-13T17:06:01Z")
BYU’s tax exemption and its students’ federal loan eligibility would have been revoked under Revenue Ruling 71-447 and §421(a)(2) of the Higher Education Act. No need to threaten the church. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/50 "2013-03-13T17:22:53Z")
> [@mamaswami](#): > > I am a descendant of original Mormon pioneers, including those in America who helped found the religion. Therefore I found it very curious when I did a genetic test and found a segment of African ancestry. I know I am not alone in having this as part of my ancestry – apparently quite a few persons of Mormon heritage who are descended from the original founders have similar racial admixture. This is most likely to be a common factor among those who have American Mormon ancestry from pioneer stock. If you’re white, the older your roots are in the US, the more likely you have some African ancestry. So, this probably has nothing to do with your Mormon roots, but everything to do with your American roots. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/51 "2013-03-13T17:28:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > BYU’s tax exemption and its students’ federal loan eligibility would have been revoked under Revenue Ruling 71-447 and §421(a)(2) of the Higher Education Act. No need to threaten the church. Actually, now that I think about it, BYU’s policy change was probably a response to [Runyon v. McCrary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runyon_v._McCrary). ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/52 "2013-03-13T17:30:23Z")
Why is this? I’d never heard of that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/53 "2013-03-13T17:33:13Z")
Are you asking me or John? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/54 "2013-03-13T20:15:42Z")
John, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/55 "2013-03-15T17:03:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you’re white, the older your roots are in the US, the more likely you have some African ancestry. So, this probably has nothing to do with your Mormon roots, but everything to do with your American roots. There’s probably a reason why some of those people moved to the mid-west in the early 1800’s to where nobody knew them or their family history. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/56 "2013-03-15T17:46:57Z")
A surprising number of American Mormons have Danish heritage, and _vice versa._ [QUOTE=[Danish Americans - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_American)] The first significant wave of Danish immigrants consisted mainly of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints members who settled in United States in 1850. They settled in the newly acquired state of Utah, which had been under Mexican control until 1848. There were 17,000 such immigrants, many of these settled in small farming communities in the Sanpete and Sevier counties. Today, these counties respectively have the second and fifth largest percentages of Danish Americans in the United States. [/QUOTE] (BTW, Mitt Romney gave his ethnicity as Danish and French.) ---
**Author:** ![Scarlet005](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Scarlet005](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlet005)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/57 "2015-01-13T03:43:34Z")
Well, in South Carolina, a majority of the Mormons are Catawba Indians. The only other Mormons I’ve actually seen were a couple of dark-haired, seemingly Caucasian missionaries I spoke to, I don’t know their ethnicity. And the only people in SC I actually know who were Mormons in SC are a family whose origins are in Liverpool and then Connecticut, but the son’s father is Mexican and Native American. However his mother was a convert and the grandparents were a Catholic and an Atheist, so I don’t know if you can go by them. I only knew one Mormon family in NJ (which doesn’t mean there weren’t any others, just that I only knew of this one personally), I don’t know their ethnicity, but the surname was McDonald, so one would assume English, Scottish, or Irish. However, every single one of their children, except the middle child (my friend) were adopted, so I don’t know if the other kids may have had different ancestry than the parents and sister. As far as attractiveness goes, I don’t see how a religion can affect one’s physical characteristics, but the most famous example I can think of is the Osmonds, most people think they’re very good-looking. Maybe that’s where the stereotype comes from? ---
**Author:** ![Scarlet005](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Scarlet005](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlet005)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/58 "2015-01-13T04:45:47Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > and maybe 5% white Hispanic. > > . . I see this thread is really old, so I don’t know if I’ll get a reply, but I had to ask. Being half Hispanic myself, and growing up in a primarily Hispanic neighborhood, but also having lived in primarily white areas as well, and having friends and acquaintances of many ethnicities, I have never in my life heard this terminology. Although Hispanic people come in all shades and colors of the rainbow from very light to very dark and everything in-between, I can assure you that we do not define ourselves as “white Hispanic” and “non-white Hispanic”. We are just Hispanic (preferred term nowadays being “Latino” unless you are descended solely from Spaniards, although I believe the word “Hispanic” is now coming back into fashion). Latino people generally do not define themselves as black or white. African Americans are called black, and Caucasian people are white. Latinos are Latinos. It doesn’t matter if you’re light or dark. I don’t think you would call two Filipino people who had differing skin colors “white Asian” and “non-white Asian”. (And for those of you who don’t know, people from the Philippines are half Chinese and half Spanish, so they can have features from either or both. ) The only thing I can think you meant was people whose ancestors were from Spain, as they are the only Hispanics that would be considered “white”. These people then would simply be “Spanish”. In general, the Spanish are not considered to be “Latinos”. They don’t even settle in the same neighborhoods (at least in the northeast). Latino neighborhoods are usually occupied by people of Carribbean and South and Central American (and I guess in states where most of the Latino population is Mexican, they would be of Mexican descent. That’s how it is in SC but people here think everyone who isn’t white is “mexican”, lol, so I’m not quite sure if I can go by that “census”.). The Spanish settle in the same communities as the Portuguese or sometimes Italians. The Old Guard Europeans look down on Latinos. I guess they think them “impure” or something, because they’re not of pure Spanish lineage. (The Spanish don’t even speak the same language we do. Every time a person from Spain tries to talk to me I say: “I’m sorry, but I don’t speak Portuguese”, only for them to tell me they aren’t speaking Portuguese, but Spanish, lol. It sounds exactly the same to my ears. It’s not any kind of Spanish I’ve ever spoken.) While we of course all have ancestors from Spain, Latinos are also generally mixed with Indian (In the Columbus sense of the word) and sometimes also African (depending on country of origin), or some combination thereof. Some people may have more of one than the other. Which is why you can find three people from the same country with completely different coloring. Someone with Cuban or Puerto Rican ancestry who has a Caucasian complexion or who has an African complexion (and we do run the gamut) will both identify themselves as “Cuban” (or Puerto Rican) and NOT as “black Cuban” and “white Cuban”. Or “black” (because a black person would mean African American) or “white” (because white would mean a Caucasian person) and they consider themselves neither. The identity is “Latino”. I am going to be generous and assume you didn’t mean to be intentionally racist, as you said you grew up and lived in primarily white communities most of your life, so maybe you just didn’t know any better. Some people really don’t. A friend and I were talking to a group of Hispanic men once here in SC, and she referred to one of them as Mexican and his friend said: “He’s not Mexican. He’s Venezuelan.” And she replied: “What’s the difference?” She was dead serious. Lol. She really…didn’t know… The only reason she probably never said I was Mexican is because I don’t think she knows my ancestry. If she did, she’d probably wonder what part of Mexico Puerto Rico is in and how I can be so fair-skinned if I’m Mexican. :smack: I actually ran into someone here who mentioned a guy who was “Mexican or something” was running for president that year. I think he meant Obama! Lol. So, I’m not offended by anything you’ve said, because as you can see, I’ve encountered worse, and you certainly are not in these people’s category, thank goodness! I just wanted to clarify A) What you meant by “white Hispanic” and B) Let you know that that wouldn’t be an acceptable (or accurate) way to define people of Latin descent, so you don’t wind up saying something in the wrong place at the wrong time and get yourself into trouble .😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/59 "2015-01-13T04:55:49Z")
It is an actual classification in US forms. White (not-Hispanic), white (Hispanic). Generally when you run into this particular pair, it stems from at attempt at avoiding white Hispanics asking “so what do I mark?” when faced with older forms that listed “white” and “hispanic” as separate categories and you could choose only one. And Latino and Hispanic are understood by many to be different. Latino as apocope of _latinoamericano_, only includes people from the Americas; Hispanic derived from _hispano_, as apocope of _hispanoparlante_, including anybody who considers Spanish as a primary language, including people from Spain or Equatorial Guinea (or the Philippines, although you’re less likely to encounter someone from there who identifies as Hispanic). ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477/60 "2015-01-13T05:25:13Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > I don’t suppose you have any data or say an official declaration to go with your anecdote? I’m happy that your experience is such a multi-cultural paradise. My experience is quite different. In the 35 years I was active I never met a single interracial couple in the church in the US. Then you must have been living under a rock or in another century [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-composition-of-mormonism/584477.md?page=4)