# Ethnic Jews v European Settlers Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2010, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806 "2010-05-09T10:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/41 "2010-05-09T21:19:04Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Also if these so called Jews who follow Judaism and God’s laws, would not have cared or dared to change their names whether they were slaves or not. …and that’s all for today’s broadcast. Tune in next week, same time, same channel to\* Muslims Who Think Israel Should Be Destroyed, Explaining How Real Jews Should Observe Judaism. \* ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/42 "2010-05-09T21:20:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ignoring your\*\* horrible\*\* terminology and glaring factual errors, sure, why not. Alright, this quote is probably too snarky. Let me explain: > [@](#): > > Are European settlers Most Israelis are not European settlers. Of Jewish Israelis, 70% are Israeli born, mostly third or second generation. Originally, most of these Israelis are Sephardic-meaning they come from the Middle East. > [@](#): > > entitled to live in Palestine and throw Christian and Muslim Palestinians out of their homes to do it Once again pointing to what everyone else has been saying, nobody was thrown out. Olim bought the land from Arabs. If you don’t accept land purchase as valid, what DO you consider valid? Allah showing up and stating in clear English that he is transferring the land? > [@](#): > > when they have no ties or ancestors in the region? Are you familiar with the history of the land? Israel existed years ago until the Babylonians conquered it. Eventually the Jews were given the land back, until the Romans took over the land and exiled them again. They then named the land Philistine, after a tribe that was the greatest enemy of Israel and Judah. They named the land that to spite the Jews, incidentally. Finally, years later, Islam was founded and Muslims took over the entire area. Eventually the Ottoman empire was founded. After WWI, the Ottomans collapsed and the British took over. Then Israel was founded. Oh, and through all these years there was a Jewish presence in Israel. So no ties my… You know. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/43 "2010-05-09T21:22:43Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Arabs perhaps but Arab Muslims no. Your no True Scotsman argument really is… boring. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/44 "2010-05-09T21:23:57Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > wrong > not Egyptian > > the guy last night was though I have no bloody clue as to what this means (other than perhaps multiple people are using your account… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/45 "2010-05-09T21:24:32Z")
Heh, it’s amazing how so many of us are attracted to all the wonderful benefits of being Jewish, that we pretend to be Jews even though we’re not. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/46 "2010-05-09T21:29:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, it’s amazing how so many of us are attracted to all the wonderful benefits of being Jewish, that we pretend to be Jews even though we’re not. 😛 Hey, there are benefits. But there are so many responsibilities that people don’t convert into Judaism. I can tell you that my non-Jewish friends would never give up cheeseburgers… And it’s not that easy to convert. I don’t want to derail the topic, but if anyone is interested I’d be glad to start a thread about how hard it is to convert. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/47 "2010-05-09T21:35:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Hey, there are benefits. But there are so many responsibilities that people don’t convert into Judaism. I can tell you that my non-Jewish friends would never give up cheeseburgers… > > And it’s not that easy to convert. I don’t want to derail the topic, but if anyone is interested I’d be glad to start a thread about how hard it is to convert. I know, I was just being a tad sarcastic. The notion that hordes of people are somehow _faking_ a Jewish identity that they in fact lack, as per the OP, strikes me at least as most amusing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/48 "2010-05-09T21:35:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, it’s amazing how so many of us are attracted to all the wonderful benefits of being Jewish, that we pretend to be Jews even though we’re not. 😛 What’s not to like about completely controlling the whole world? Secretly, of course. It’s the only way to do it! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/49 "2010-05-09T21:40:47Z")
Careful John. Some people won’t pick up on that sarcasm… Said something like that on another board, then was quoted as “proof” that Jews control the world. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/50 "2010-05-09T21:41:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What’s not to like about completely controlling the whole world? Secretly, of course. It’s the only way to do it! But … but … if there are hordes of fake Jews joining up to secretly control the world, how can the real ones keep control?! The mind boggles! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/51 "2010-05-09T21:48:09Z")
I can imagine people wanting to pretend to be Jews _especially_ in Arab nations. I mean, right? Oh, and while pointing out silly things that the OP has claimed, the idea that Israel is composed only of European Jews of course ignores the actions of the Arabs at the time. To elaborate, around '48 the Arab regimes expelled or made life so intolerable for their Jewish residents that they fled. The Jewish refugees at the time were, in fact, roughly equal in number to the Palestinian refugees at the time. Except rather than being put into camps with discriminatory laws enacted to keep them stateless and unemployed (you can just _feel_ the Arab Brotherhood), the Mizrahim who fled to Israel were granted citizenship and absorbed into the populace. And today a large fraction of Israeli citizens are those some Jews (or their descendants) who were driven out of their ancestral homes all across the Arab world. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/52 "2010-05-09T21:51:53Z")
So Muslims/Arabs, just by virtue of their religion or ethnicity, have a right to land that other people own because those others have the wrong religion/ethnicity or their great-great grandparents come from other nations. \*\* No!! absolutely not. That is called stealing. It is against the Quran. If it is owned by someone then it is theirs. \*\* Land magically becomes "Muslim land’ or “Arab land”, in perpetuity. No And people from Indonesia or Iran have more claim to a plot of land than those who bought it, **no idea what you are on about here:confused: as far as I know there are no Indonesians or Iranians waiting to invade.** or people from Dubai and Saudai Arabia have more of a claim to a plot of land those those who bought it, due to their religion or ethnicity, respectively. \*\* What land are you on about ? 😕\*\* And the Muslims/Arabs who invaded the region and conquered it by force gave their descendants more of a claim to it what land? The Arabs are from this region. You talk like Arabs are Muslim only ???😕 Have you heard about the Christian Arabs at all? The Jewish Arabs? , in toto, that other people who move to it and buy property there, because they’re of the ‘wrong’ race. And unless you belong to the ‘correct’ race, you have no right to self determination. absolutely. If you move from New York into Israel and demolish a family home where they can show you papers of ownership and dig up olive groves to plant your swimming pools etc then absolutely. It is called theft. They wlll resist you, as you would anyone coming up your street with a Caterpillar Bulldozer and some hammers and a sold sign. But we can offer you dhimmi status. **In Egypt Non Muslims are not required to fight in the military, (in actual fact they are lucky as being a recruit here is hell. Egyptian training is described as hell and they all have to do national service) the Dhimmi tax free’s the non muslim from that BUT he must be protected and his property, by Muslims and the tax is to balance it out. Ask any Egyptian Copt if they’d rather be dhimmi or a recruit;) Dhimmi is much preferred. There is really no other difference from what I have seen here. They run businesses, have churches, are usually wealthy and own plenty land and properties. I don’t know any poor Copts although there will be some I am sure in the villages.** What is the Dhimmi status of Arab Christians and Arab Muslims living in Israel? What rights do they have exactly? what status? It is after all a JEWISH state. Can the Arab Muslims pray on Friday at the mosque in al quds? were the Arab Christians allowed into the holy city during Easter?How many tickets were they allowed? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/53 "2010-05-09T21:52:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > (you can just _feel_ the Arab Brotherhood That’s always been my number 1 question to Arabs. If they love their Palestinian brothers so much, why do they REFUSE to give them basic rights? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/54 "2010-05-09T21:56:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ignoring your\*\* horrible\*\* terminology and glaring factual errors, sure, why not. so then you must accept what happens as a consequence ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/55 "2010-05-09T21:59:53Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > so then you must accept what happens as a consequence What, exactly, are the “consequences” in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/56 "2010-05-09T22:00:28Z")
Please use Quotes… It’s not hard and makes things so much clearer. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > The Arabs are from this region. You talk like Arabs are Muslim only ???😕 > Have you heard about the Christian Arabs at all? The Jewish Arabs? Of course I’ve heard of Christian Arabs. They served with people I know in the IDF. In fact, Muslim Arabs (Bedouin) serve too. As for Arab Jews? Any of those would be either dead or living in Israel, after the Arab countries kicked them out. > [@](#): > > What is the Dhimmi status of Arab Christians and Arab Muslims living in Israel? What rights do they have exactly? what status? It is after all a JEWISH state. Can the Arab Muslims pray on Friday at the mosque in al quds? were the Arab Christians allowed into the holy city during Easter?How many tickets were they allowed? What rights do Arabs of all types have in Israel? Well, they can get full citizenship or a visa (Jews can’t even enter many Arab countries, even going through the normal legal process). They can run for Prime Minister and found their own party (and many of them do). They can pray whenever they want. In fact, they are full citizens. They can do anything that isn’t a crime. Can Jews in Arab lands do that? Didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/57 "2010-05-09T22:00:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I can imagine people wanting to pretend to be Jews _especially_ in Arab nations. > I mean, right? you flipped If you check back it metioned Germans and Austrians and Russians. No one mentioned anything about changing names in Arab countries. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/58 "2010-05-09T22:04:03Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > you flipped > > If you check back it metioned Germans and Austrians and Russians. No one mentioned anything about changing names in Arab countries. You still haven’t explained why so many people would “pretend” to be Jewish, even in Europe. I suppose they just wanted to join in the Holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/59 "2010-05-09T22:05:18Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > you flipped > > If you check back it metioned Germans and Austrians and Russians. No one mentioned anything about changing names in Arab countries. … because, as everyone knows, pretending to be Jewish in 19th and 20th century Germany, Austria and Russia _makes so much more sense_. 😃 Edit: d’oh! Ninja’d. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806/60 "2010-05-09T22:14:43Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > No!! absolutely not. That is called stealing. It is against the Quran. If it is owned by someone then it is theirs. I’m glad that you agree that the attempt to deny the Zionists self determination on land that they bought was an act of organized theft and that you feel it was against the Koran. And, likewise, that Hamas’ claims that all the land involved is “Muslim land” because Muslims conquered it and it should all be taken back from non-Muslims is not only not “resistance” but organized theft. Progress is being made, > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > absolutely. If you move from New York into Israel and demolish a family home where they can show you papers of ownership and dig up olive groves to plant your swimming pools etc then absolutely. I see we’ve entered the false analogy portion of the debate. Of course, what’s at issue were the Jews who moved to the area, bought land from its owners and wanted self determination. That would have been the end of it if the Arab nations hadn’t decided to wage a war of genocide, and then lost. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > the Dhimmi tax free’s the non muslim from that BUT he must be protected and his property, by Muslims and the tax is to balance it out. > Ask any Egyptian Copt if they’d rather be dhimmi or a recruit;) Dhimmi is much preferred. Just a hint, arguing for official discrimination kind of shows what your argument is really about. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > What is the Dhimmi status of Arab Christians and Arab Muslims living in Israel? What rights do they have exactly? what status? It is after all a JEWISH state. Can the Arab Muslims pray on Friday at the mosque in al quds? were the Arab Christians allowed into the holy city during Easter?How many tickets were they allowed? Likewise, learning the basic facts before you post is _awesome_. Muslims and Christians in Israel have full rights even though it is in all caps the “Jewish” state. But again, good to see that you believe that official Muslim states are bad. Which, damn lookee that, Egypt is an officially Muslim state. Ah yes, Muslims are allowed on the Temple Mount, in fact access is protected by Israeli law and administration has been retained by the Waqf. In point of fact, due to the potential for violence, [non-Muslims are often prohibited from praying at the Temple Mount.](http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/three-jews-expelled-from-temple-mount-for-praying-1.98824) Christians are allowed in Jerusalem as well, I’m not even sure where you’re getting your factual errors from. Interestingly of course, the Jews _were_ prohibited from praying at the Western Wall by the Jordanians when they controlled the city. The Jewish Quarter was destroyed and its population expelled, many Jewish religious sites were desecrated and/or destroyed, and one of the most ancient Jewish cemeteries in the world had its tombstones torn down and used to pave the Arab Legion’s latrines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-jews-v-european-settlers-jews/538806.md?page=4)