# Ethnic slurs in old books that you like - what impression? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 21, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007 "2005-08-21T18:35:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/41 "2005-08-22T19:24:05Z")
Re Dave Sims Oh, it’s universally agreed that he slowly lost his mind over the past few decades. We’ve had threads on this. **Fenris** has explained exactly how the series changed from a fantasy filled with genre jokes to Sims’ raving about the evils of women. Re The Great Gatsby I only read this back in high school. But, the only Jew I remember was Meyer Wolfsheim. I’ve since read that Wolfsheim was an accurate portrayal of Meyer Lansky. More, ever on alert for antisemitism in the school reading list (I’m still pissed about having to read The Bronze Bow in sixth grade), I saw Wolfsheim being a greedy and disgusting (IIRC ‘the fine patches of hair which luxuriated in his nostrils’) example of a mobster rather than an example of a Jew. Instead of a charming and debonair man in custom made suits and adorned with diamonds, one of the most powerful mobsters in America, is a disgusting troll. Re Lovecraft I just said this in another thread. Lovecraft was raised by overprotective aunts. He was shy, had poor social skills, and did not like interacting with the world in general. He had an urge to live in the past, and wanted things to ‘stay in their proper place’. The Spanish should stay in Spanish places and do Spanish things. The English should stay in English places and do English things. etc. Abandoning the proper practices and places only led to bad things. Mixing between any two groups led to deterioration. IMHO Lovecraft never grew out of his aunts’ influence and never experienced enough of the real world to teach him the error of his bigotted beliefs. Having said all that, I still have problems with the story The Rats In The Walls featuring a cat with the charming name of “Niggerman”. It’s possible this is meant to represent the prejudice of the lead character. But, it’s much more likely Lovecraft just used the name of one of his own cats. There are still some confusing facts. As a boy, Lovecraft read and reread Burton’s translation of The Book Of A Thousand Nights And A Night. He adored all things Arabian and took to calling himself “Abdul Al Hazred”. The other big problem is the story Trapped In The Walls Of Eryx. He did colaborate with another writer on this piece. The straight science fiction is not Lovecraft’s usual genre. At first glance, this is just another earthman-alone-on-assignment-on-frontier-planet-ends-up-in-big-trouble. Having read it quite a few times, I’m convinced that it’s a thinly veiled allegory whose meaning is ‘The natives may seem strange and bestial. But, they are just as inteligent as we are. More, it’s their land and their resources and we have no right to charge in with machines and guns and take it.’ ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/42 "2005-08-22T19:45:18Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I can’t believe I’m the first person to mention Margaret Mitchell and “Gone With the Wind.” That’d probably be because of the “…that you like” qualifier in the thread title. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/43 "2005-08-22T20:11:15Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > [Pause for anecdote] > > A few years ago I was working on a client’s 100th anniversary celebration. The company had assembled a lot of old photos, old product labels, and a handful of what were called “Monday Memos” – little chatty or motivational notes the founder had written each week to the employees. > > The founder is widely known as a philanthropist with a sterling moral character. He had an impeccable reputation for dealing with employees, suppliers and customers and inspired his descendents to go into public service, philanthropy, education, etc. > > When I asked why the company reprinted so few of his papers, I was told, after a great deal of hemming and hawing, that “he was a man of his times” who used some terms that some people might find offensive. Specifically people who were not male, not white, not American, not Christian. . . My WAG … Henry Ford? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/44 "2005-08-22T20:58:53Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > How many people skipped over the black people’s dialogue because it was too hard to decipher? I personally never found it that hard to read, having grown up reading Joel Chandler Harris, Zora Neale Hurston and Langston Hughes, but there’s a whole lot of readers who do have trouble with the black vernacular and refuse to try to learn it’s written form, even from contemporary authors like Walter Moseley. It’s frustrating. I sometimes play with urban versions of the vernacular in my characters and my complaint from some people who sample my unpublished work is that they don’t like it, won’t read it, and it’s usually the first thing they suggest re-writing. Personally as long as the vernacular is confined to one or two character’s dialogue it’s okay to me if the writer asks you to work a little harder. Here’s a sample from Chapter 1: > [@](#): > > Brent turned in the saddle and called to the negro groom. > > “Jeems!” > > **"Suh?"** > > “You heard what we were talking to Miss Scarlett about?” > > **"Nawsuh, Mist’ Brent! Huccome you think Ah be spyin’ on w’ite > folks?"** > > “Spying, my God! You darkies know everything that goes on. Why, > you liar, I saw you with my own eyes sidle round the corner of the > porch and squat in the cape jessamine bush by the wall. Now, did > you hear us say anything that might have made Miss Scarlett mad– > or hurt her feelings?” > > Thus appealed to, Jeems gave up further pretense of not having > overheard the conversation and furrowed his black brow. > > \*\*“Nawsuh, Ah din’ notice y’all say anything ter mek her mad. Look > ter me lak she sho glad ter see you an’ sho had missed you, an’ > she cheep along happy as a bird, tell ‘bout de time y’all got ter > talkin’ ‘bout Mist’ Ashley an’ Miss Melly Hamilton gittin’ > mah’ied. Den she quiet down lak a bird w’en de hawk fly ober.” \*\* I find some writer’s grasp of the American black vernacular of the antebellum South-WWII era to be easier to read than other’s. Mitchell’s is typical. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/45 "2005-08-22T21:19:09Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > My WAG … Henry Ford? No. Hell, Ford’s moral flaws were so well known that publishing his actual writings would probably only help his reputation. My guy was only a minor 19th Century capitalist – not in the big leagues like Rockefeller, Carnegie, Stamford, Vanderbilt or any of that type. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/46 "2005-08-22T21:39:09Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > I personally never found it that hard to read, having grown up reading Joel Chandler Harris, Zora Neale Hurston and Langston Hughes, but there’s a whole lot of readers who do have trouble with the black vernacular and refuse to try to learn it’s written form, even from contemporary authors like Walter Moseley. . It took me a minute to realize that Mist was mister and not missus. I’m still puzzled by this “cape jessamine”. I was expecting something a lot harder to understand- archaic slang, unfamiliar metaphors and idioms etc. Mellvile uses the same accent to disguise the purpose of a speech in Moby Dick. The cook has been ordered to preach a sermon to the sharks, so that they’ll stop making so much noise eating a whale carcass. The reader tends to be so occupied with the cook’s accent and the ridiculousness of the situation, that they don’t stop to evaluate the sermon or that it’s very much Mellvile preaching. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/47 "2005-08-22T21:45:43Z")
Well, there’s Tolkien: “Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.” I’ve seen some try to argue these folks he’s describing weren’t just _like_ half-trolls, they _were_ half-trolls. I’m not buyin’ it. What to say, what to say. Well, there is this other passage, where Sam witnesses the Rangers of Ithilien ambushing the Haradrim… “It was Sam’s first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face [of the Southron warior]. He wondered what the man’s name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace.” In short, Tolkien generally meant well, but his world view was a reflection of the deeply racist and classist society in which he was surrounded. We see his pluralist sympathies in the alliance between the races that is required to defeat Sauron, as well as the acknowledgement that the Southrons and the Dunlendings were decieved by Sauron and Saruman, respectively, and perhaps not in their nature evil (though probably more easily corrupted than those Men of the North and West of Middle Earth of “high lineage”). Be that as it may, his depictions of Sauron’s human allies would rightly offend the modern reader’s sensibilities. Tolkien, I think, would likely be sensitive to such matters were he alive today, and would have modified his wording in places to spare his readers-of-color any injury. He wrote to the standards of his day, which far predated political correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/48 "2005-08-22T21:53:56Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Huh. > > I’ve never taken a literature course, so I didn’t know the true interpretation. It seemed to me to be so heavy-handed that it _had_ to be sarcasm/parody, much like Nine Inch Nails’ “Man With a Gun.” Not during Kipling’s time. Sentimentality was standard with most Victorians. Everything syrupy, sentimental, torrid, ham-fisted purple prose. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/49 "2005-08-22T22:21:14Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > I need to add that Conan Doyle does have one story in which the mother of a mixed-race child (and the child) are treated with great sympathy and understanding, so he apparently was able to see beyond the racism of his day, but not beyond the antisemitism. **The Yellow Face** , in which astoundingly for the time, the mother is white and the father black: ‘“This is John Hebron, of Atlanta…and a nobler man never walked the earth. I cut myself off from my own race in order to wed him, but never once while he lived did I for an instant regret it.”’ Unfortunately he more than drops the ball in the later and lazier **The Adventure Of The Three Gables** , in which Holmes is reduced to making dumb racist wisecracks: ‘“That’s my name, Masser Holmes, and you’ll get put through it for sure if you give me any lip.” “It is certainly the last thing you need,” said Holmes, staring at our visitor’s hideous mouth.’ ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/50 "2005-08-22T22:21:15Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > It took me a minute to realize that Mist was mister and not missus. I’m still puzzled by this “cape jessamine”. I was expecting something a lot harder to understand- archaic slang, unfamiliar metaphors and idioms etc. ?? Even after reading Jeems reply, “Suh?” and “Nawsuh, Mist’’ Brent!” you didn’t immediately _know_ Mist’ was “Mister?” Or that when Jeems squat in the “cape jessamine bush” it’s a … well… _bush?_ There are many more examples of period colloquialisms and idioms in [Gone With The Wind](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200161.txt); I just cut and pasted the very first exchanges involving a black slave. Here’s something more challenging: > [@](#): > > “Well, let’s cut across country to Abel’s,” suggested Brent. “We > can go through Mr. O’Hara’s river bottom and the Fontaine’s > pasture and get there in no time.” > > **"We ain’ gwine git nothin’ ter eat ‘cept possum an’ greens,"** > argued Jeems. > > “You ain’t going to get anything,” grinned Stuart. “Because you > are going home and tell Ma that we won’t be home for supper.” > > **"No, Ah ain’!"** cried Jeems in alarm. **"No, Ah ain’! Ah doan git > no mo’ fun outer havin’ Miss Beetriss lay me out dan y’all does. > Fust place she’ll ast me huccome Ah let y’all git expelled agin. > An’ nex’ thing, huccome Ah din’ bring y’all home ternight so she > could lay you out. An’ den she’ll light on me lak a duck on a > June bug, an’ fust thing Ah know Ah’ll be ter blame fer it all. > Ef y’all doan tek me ter Mist’ Wynder’s, Ah’ll lay out in de woods > all night an’ maybe de patterollers git me, 'cause Ah heap ruther > de patterollers git me dan Miss Beetriss when she in a state."** ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/51 "2005-08-22T22:32:02Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > Here’s something more challenging: Cape Jessamine is another name for Gardenia, btw. But, here’s my translation of your passage: “No, I’m not! No, I’m not! I don’t enjoy having Miss Beatrice [Tarleton, the twin’s mother] beat me than you two do. First, she’ll ask me why I let you get expelled again. Next, why I didn’t bring you home tonight so she could beat you. Then she’ll jump on me like a duck on a june bug, and first thing you know, I’ll be to blame for it all! If you don’t take me to Mr. Winders, I’ll stay in the woods all night, and maybe the patrollers will get me, because I’d rather the patrollers get me than Miss Beatrice when she’s like that.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/52 "2005-08-22T22:34:09Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > It took me a minute to realize that Mist was mister and not missus. I’m still puzzled by this “cape jessamine”. [Cape jasmine](http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/teach/ORH4804/3/314.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/53 "2005-08-22T22:45:52Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Well, there’s Tolkien: I disagree. In Middle Earth much of Mankind was in the thrall of Morgoth (and then Sauron) from the start. Sauron even seduces the Numenoreans. To put a more modern cast on things, there are plenty of places where racism still runs rampant. How does modern literature from these places depict ‘inferior’ races? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/54 "2005-08-22T23:02:16Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Well, there’s Tolkien: > > “Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.” > > I’ve seen some try to argue these folks he’s describing weren’t just _like_ half-trolls, they _were_ half-trolls. I’m not buyin’ it. Why not? There are whole tribes of men who are definitely part orc? The guy in Bree who calls Strider “longshanks” and is in other ways a jerk (He makes Sam so mad, that the hobbit throws a perfectly good apple at him), is repeatedly describe as having vaguely orcish features. > [@](#): > > What to say, what to say. Well, there is this other passage, where Sam witnesses the Rangers of Ithilien ambushing the Haradrim… > > “It was Sam’s first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face [of the Southron warior]. He wondered what the man’s name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace.” > > In short, Tolkien generally meant well, but his world view was a reflection of the deeply racist and classist society in which he was surrounded. We see his pluralist sympathies in the alliance between the races that is required to defeat Sauron, as well as the acknowledgement that the Southrons and the Dunlendings were decieved by Sauron and Saruman, respectively, and perhaps not in their nature evil We see that in the Dunderlings certainly. ‘You’re not going to kill us horribly? You plan on treating us well and having a meeting with our leaders? You don’t rape mothers while eating baby kabobs? Saruman has deceived us!’ I don’t remember any similar event with the Southrons. Sam wonders if they were lied to. That’s very far from a statement by Tolkien that they were lied to. > [@](#): > > (though probably more easily corrupted than those Men of the North and West of Middle Earth of “high lineage”). I don’t know, the men of the North and West seem pretty easy to corrupt. Boromir. Denethor (he never turns to the service of Sauron, but he does become an arrogant, selfish bastard who only cares about himself. Gandalf says “In him, the Numenorian blood runs almost true.”). And of course, the Mouth Of Mordor, also a Numenorian, willing to serve Sauron out of his own desire for power. > [@](#): > > Be that as it may, his depictions of Sauron’s human allies would rightly offend the modern reader’s sensibilities. Really? I’ve read the LOTR trilogy and OTTOMH, I can’t think why they would. Re Jessamine That was comedy people. “Jessamine bush” is either a type of plant, or a sexually transmitted disease. In context, it must be the former. Re Mo Rustic Talkin Should “expelled” be clear in context? Does it have a special use in the dialect? or, is he just mentioning how his two companions were thrown out of someplace a scene or two ago? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/55 "2005-08-22T23:11:30Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Jessamine > > That was comedy people. “Jessamine bush” is either a type of plant, or a sexually transmitted disease. In context, it must be the former. Oh, God **Doc.** I pray you’re just trying to whooosh people. > [@](#): > > Should “expelled” be clear in context? Does it have a special use in the dialect? or, is he just mentioning how his two companions were thrown out of someplace a scene or two ago? The twins had been expelled from the University of Georgia earlier, their fourth university. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/56 "2005-08-22T23:22:52Z")
Jessamine Bush was actually an antebellum ancestor of Bush _pere, fils, et frere_, who gained early notoriety for squatting. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/57 "2005-08-22T23:26:23Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > Jessamine Bush was actually an antebellum ancestor of Bush _pere, fils, et frere_, who gained early notoriety for squatting. Huh. Perhaps she’s distantly related to current notorious squatter, Cindy Sheenan. She’s not above beating about the Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/58 "2005-08-23T00:44:29Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I love the writing of H.P. Lovecraft. J.T. Joshi castigates de Camp for his “parochial” statements about Lovecraft’s racism, but I don’t see why. I tried to explain Lovecraft’s “A Shadow over Innsmouth” to my daughter, and I realized that the story is in essence a condemnation of miscegenation, albeit with aquatic creatures. It’s be interesting to rewrite it as a condemnation of racist views, told from the viewpoint of Disney’s Ariel. it’s a helluva good read, but at its root it’s about the horrors of interbeeding with a different race of creatures, and no amount of arguing gets you away from that. Wrong. Lovecraft’s own letter and other stories as well as the works of numerous biographers and analysts make it quite plain that you have totally misinterpreted that story and Lovecraft in general. You have apparently fallen into the “Star Wars” trap of finding racism anywhere races are mentioned. Lovecraft had a long history of insanity in his family. In those days insanity was considered to be both heritable and shameful. That’s hardly surprising since the insanity in Lovecraft’s family was apparently caused by congenital syphillis contracted by some ancestor while travelling in the South Seas. As a result the insane Lovecrafts in the last stages were locked away and never mentioned again. The young H. P. Lovecraft was never told about his insane ancestors and as a result it came as one hell of a shock when he discovered from rumours and old writings that he had them. Thereafter he lived in quiet terror of gong mad himself. “Shadow Over Innsmouth” is not a condemnation of miscegenation, it is a story about the terrors of a genetic legacy catching up with you through no fault of your own. The hero discovers the genetic evil in his own past and is unable to escape it. But the genetic evil isn’t race. Even a brief consideration of the plot shows that it can’t be race. Although the people of Innsmouth develop odd and unpleasant features the taint isn’t obvious at birth even for first generation hybrids, but rather progresses with age. Innsmouth folk appear perfectly human until they reach their 20s at least, while others may not take the taint until their old age. _”Them things told the Kanakys that ef they mixed bloods there’d be children as ud look human at fust, but later turn more’n more like the things, till finally they’d take to the water an’ jine the main lot o’ things daown thar._” That is not a feature of any racial miscegenation and that inability to know whether you carry the taint until it strikes is central to the story. It fits insanity very well indeed but doesn’t fit racial miscegenation at all. Moreover the taint isn’t fearful because it causes a change in appearance but because it causes a change in behaviour. A person with the taint will cease to behave in a manner that is human even and be forced to leave human society. Those are the two major characteristics of the Innsmouth taint and they match insanity perfectly but don’t correspond in any way to racial miscegenation. It may be worth your while to read other Lovecraft stories to see that is a recurring theme. While you may be able to force a racial twist to “Shadow over Innsmouth” it becomes far harder with “The Diary of Alonzo Typer” where the progenitors were demon worshipping Dutchmen who cursed their ancestors to literally open the door that will destroy their sanity. Admittedly there was a strong insinuation of breeding with numerous other “races” but that was not a major plot point. Even more disocrdant is “The Strange Case of Charles Dexter Ward” where all ancestors were perfectly human as far as we know, yet the family curse was inherited and ended up putting the hero in an asylum (in essence). So here we have two stories with the same basic outline as “Innsmouth” but with less and no miscengenation respectively. The undetectable familial taint that drives the hero to insane acts remains central but miscegenation plays only a minor role. In other stories the hybrids are some unspecified type of ape and Yog-Sothoth himself but in all cases the ancestry is hidden from the world but comes back to curse the hero and compel him to inhuman actions. While the miscegenation being hidden could be construed as racial, the compulsion to inhuman behaviour starts stretching the analogy to breaking point. Given that Lovecraft himself makes it fairly clear if not explicit that he was drawing on his familial fears of inherited insanity I don’t think grasping for racial explanations has much validity. It’s like those people who look for racism in the Star Wars movies. The only way you could possibly infer racism is because the story contains multiple races, which is pretty weak. It becomes even weaker when there exists a far more plausible explanation that provides a much better fit. The fact that you saw racism in this story where there is none intended tells us a lot about the real racism in these period works. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Lovecraft was raised by overprotective aunts He was raised by his mother after his Father went nuts while he was very young 3yo IIRC). He move din with his Aunts when his mother was committed to the nuthatch, but that was when he was in his 30s, so you couldn’t really say he was raised by his Aunts. > [@](#): > > I still have problems with the story The Rats In The Walls featuring a cat with the charming name of “Niggerman”. This particular objection irks me. Nigger is the modern English variant of the Latin niger and simply means black. It became progressively offensive over many hundreds of years and numerous cultures but it was not originally or universally an offensive term. At the time Lovecraft was learning the word even negroes regularly referred to themselves as niggers. The word only seems to have taken on genuinely offensive connotations in the 20th century. Lovecraft’s use almost certainly wasn’t intended to be offensive. Imagine if the usage of the word “Black” to describe Negroes was to become progressively offensive. In one hundred years time your own writings would imply you are racist. Of course you aren’t you are merely using a common descriptor. It’s hardly fair to criticise people for using what were inoffensive words at the time. What next, we start criticising Lincoln for referring to an actress rather than an actor? Surely we need more evidence of bigotry than the common usage of words. > [@](#): > > There are still some confusing facts. As a boy, Lovecraft read and reread Burton’s translation of The Book Of A Thousand Nights And A Night. He adored all things Arabian and took to calling himself “Abdul Al Hazred”. You do know that he married a Jew. Lovecraft was very anti-immigration and pro-isolationism but he doesn’t seem to have had much racial bias that I know of. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/59 "2005-08-23T00:50:45Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I love the writing of H.P. Lovecraft. J.T. Joshi castigates de Camp for his “parochial” statements about Lovecraft’s racism, but I don’t see why. I tried to explain Lovecraft’s “A Shadow over Innsmouth” to my daughter, and I realized that the story is in essence a condemnation of miscegenation, albeit with aquatic creatures. It’s be interesting to rewrite it as a condemnation of racist views, told from the viewpoint of Disney’s Ariel. it’s a helluva good read, but at its root it’s about the horrors of interbeeding with a different race of creatures, and no amount of arguing gets you away from that. Wrong. Lovecraft’s own letter and other stories as well as the works of numerous biographers and analysts make it quite plain that you have totally misinterpreted that story and Lovecraft in general. You have apparently fallen into the “Star Wars” trap of finding racism anywhere races are mentioned. Lovecraft had a long history of insanity in his family. In those days insanity was considered to be both heritable and shameful. That’s hardly surprising since the insanity in Lovecraft’s family was apparently caused by congenital syphillis contracted by some ancestor while travelling in the South Seas. As a result the insane Lovecrafts in the last stages were locked away and never mentioned again. The young H. P. Lovecraft was never told about his insane ancestors and as a result it came as one hell of a shock when he discovered from rumours and old writings that he had them. Thereafter he lived in quiet terror of gong mad himself. “Shadow Over Innsmouth” is not a condemnation of miscegenation, it is a story about the terrors of a genetic legacy catching up with you through no fault of your own. The hero discovers the genetic evil in his own past and is unable to escape it. But the genetic evil isn’t race. Even a brief consideration of the plot shows that it can’t be race. Although the people of Innsmouth develop odd and unpleasant features the taint isn’t obvious at birth even for first generation hybrids, but rather progresses with age. Innsmouth folk appear perfectly human until they reach their 20s at least, while others may not take the taint until their old age. _”Them things told the Kanakys that ef they mixed bloods there’d be children as ud look human at fust, but later turn more’n more like the things, till finally they’d take to the water an’ jine the main lot o’ things daown thar._” That is not a feature of any racial miscegenation and that inability to know whether you carry the taint until it strikes is central to the story. It fits insanity very well indeed but doesn’t fit racial miscegenation at all. Moreover the taint isn’t fearful because it causes a change in appearance but because it causes a change in behaviour. A person with the taint will cease to behave in a manner that is human even and be forced to leave human society. Those are the two major characteristics of the Innsmouth taint and they match insanity perfectly but don’t correspond in any way to racial miscegenation. It may be worth your while to read other Lovecraft stories to see that is a recurring theme. While you may be able to force a racial twist to “Shadow over Innsmouth” it becomes far harder with “The Diary of Alonzo Typer” where the progenitors were demon worshipping Dutchmen who cursed their ancestors to literally open the door that will destroy their sanity. Admittedly there was a strong insinuation of breeding with numerous other “races” but that was not a major plot point. Even more disocrdant is “The Strange Case of Charles Dexter Ward” where all ancestors were perfectly human as far as we know, yet the family curse was inherited and ended up putting the hero in an asylum (in essence). So here we have two stories with the same basic outline as “Innsmouth” but with less and no miscengenation respectively. The undetectable familial taint that drives the hero to insane acts remains central but miscegenation plays only a minor role. In other stories the hybrids are some unspecified type of ape and Yog-Sothoth himself but in all cases the ancestry is hidden from the world but comes back to curse the hero and compel him to inhuman actions. While the miscegenation being hidden could be construed as racial, the compulsion to inhuman behaviour starts stretching the analogy to breaking point. Given that Lovecraft himself makes it fairly clear if not explicit that he was drawing on his familial fears of inherited insanity I don’t think grasping for racial explanations has much validity. It’s like those people who look for racism in the Star Wars movies. The only way you could possibly infer racism is because the story contains multiple races, which is pretty weak. It becomes even weaker when there exists a far more plausible explanation that provides a much better fit. The fact that you saw racism in this story where there is none intended tells us a lot about the real racism in these period works. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Lovecraft was raised by overprotective aunts He was raised by his mother after his Father went nuts while he was very young 3yo IIRC). He move din with his Aunts when his mother was committed to the nuthatch, but that was when he was in his 30s, so you couldn’t really say he was raised by his Aunts. > [@](#): > > I still have problems with the story The Rats In The Walls featuring a cat with the charming name of “Niggerman”. This particular objection irks me. Nigger is the modern English variant of the Latin niger and simply means black. It became progressively offensive over many hundreds of years and numerous cultures but it was not originally or universally an offensive term. At the time Lovecraft was learning the word even negroes regularly referred to themselves as niggers. The word only seems to have taken on genuinely offensive connotations in the 20th century. Lovecraft’s use almost certainly wasn’t intended to be offensive. Imagine if the usage of the word “Black” to describe Negroes was to become progressively offensive. In one hundred years time your own writings would imply you are racist. Of course you aren’t you are merely using a common descriptor. It’s hardly fair to criticise people for using what were inoffensive words at the time. What next, we start criticising Lincoln for referring to an actress rather than an actor? Surely we need more evidence of bigotry than the common usage of words. > [@](#): > > There are still some confusing facts. As a boy, Lovecraft read and reread Burton’s translation of The Book Of A Thousand Nights And A Night. He adored all things Arabian and took to calling himself “Abdul Al Hazred”. You do know that he married a Jew. Lovecraft was very anti-immigration and pro-isolationism but he doesn’t seem to have had much racial bias that I know of. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007/60 "2005-08-23T01:02:06Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > There are whole tribes of men who are definitely part orc? The guy in Bree who calls Strider “longshanks” and is in other ways a jerk (He makes Sam so mad, that the hobbit throws a perfectly good apple at him), is repeatedly describe as having vaguely orcish features. IIRC the precise wording was “he looks more than half orc himself”. Later on when the Hobbits are kidnapped by The Uruak Hai who were strongly implied to be a union of orc and human (but still unmistakably goblins) is remarked that the Hobbits can’t help thinking how much they look like that character from Bree. Far more than vaguely orcish. Tolkein was a little coy on hybrid creatures and never even came out and said directly that the Uruk Hai were hybrids. But the existence of half-trolls is at least as strongly implied. In LOTR he refers to the sudden appearance of the Olog-Hai who were so dissimilar to trolls that people speculated that they were giant orcs. Tolkien then proclaims that they certainly were trolls but that perhaps the specualtion that they were hydbrids with humans was close to the money. Similarly it’s implied that Hobbits have some mix of elven and possibly dwarf ancestry. All of which shows that a refernce to a part troll doesn’t require anything but a literal reading. The idea that it is somehow a racial description makes no sense ot me. So they had black skin, but Tolkein had no problems describing humans as swarthy and dark. However they also had red tongues and white eyes, something that black humans don’t have. Why would this be in any way a racial description rather than a literal description of a hybrid species? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-slurs-in-old-books-that-you-like-what-impression/318007.md?page=4)