# ETHNIC VOTES AND RUTHENIANS **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 15, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807 "2000-12-15T21:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/1 "2000-12-15T21:38:59Z")
I finally found a little information on the Votes, a small ethnic group now almost extinct from the Ladoga area, but does anybody know any more about them? And are the Ruthenians merely Ukrainians? Or is there something else to them as a people? I can’t find out whether the Russian Moldavia is really old Moldavia, which with Wallachia comprised Romania, or just something Russian that is up against real Moldavia that took its name? Finally, there is the problem of Bessarabia: ethnic group or merely a geographic area? ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2000, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/2 "2000-12-15T22:30:00Z")
**Votes** I’ve never heard of. But I do recall that about a century ago there was some agitation for local independence (for the St. Petersburg region) – Ingria or Ingermanland this area was called. Maybe these _Votes_ are Ingrians? But there’s a lot of small Finno-Ugric ethnic groups in the far Russian north, also. **Ruthenians** inhabit “Transcarpathian Ukraine” now, but when it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (and later, Slovakia) it was just Ruthenia. Their language is quite close to Ukrainian, but I think it’s more likely to be considered a dialect of Ukrainian because it’s now politically a part of that country (just like Ukrainian was regarded as “Little Russian” in the days of the czars). The historical **Moldavia** is split between the Republic of Moldavia (the country that was until recently a bit of the U.S.S.R.) and Romania (Romanian Moldavia being the eastern half of the country of Romania – the western half being Wallachia). There’s no ethnic difference between Moldavia and the rest of Romania. **Bessarabia** is just an old geographic designation for (more or less) what later become the (historical) province of Moldavia. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2000, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/3 "2000-12-15T22:32:21Z")
Here’s a little something on the [Votes](http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/votes.shtml)… And here’s a little something on the [Ruthenians](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,66174+1+64505,00.html?query=ruthenian). (Although I don’t know if either of these say more than you already know.) The name [Moldavia or Moldova](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/3/0,5716,54563+1+53234,00.html?query=moldavia) historically referred to the area on both sides of the Dniester, i.e., both the northeastern part of Romania and the present Republic of Moldova. From the Britannica: > [@](#): > > Historically, the area of present-day Moldova consisted of that part of the principality of Moldavia lying east of the Prut River and, adjoining it on the south, the region of Bessarabia along the Black Sea coast. Both regions came under Ottoman rule in the 16th century, and both Bessarabia and the eastern portions of Moldavia were ceded to Russia by the Turks in 1812. Henceforth the entire region lying between the Prut and Dniester rivers took the name Bessarabia. The rest of Moldavia joined with Walachia to form the nation of Romania in 1859, and in 1918 Bessarabia threw off Russian rule and united with Romania. In 1940, however, Romania was forced to cede Bessarabia to the Soviet Union, which incorporated the region (along with a small strip of territory east of the Dniester River) as the Moldavian S.S.R. Between 1941 and 1944 Bessarabia again became part of Romania, but in 1944 Soviet troops retook the territory. Actually, the region which was originally known as Bessarabia is now part of Ukraine. I don’t believe there is a distinct ethnic group or language known as “Bessarabian”. The majority of Moldovans are basically Romanians (culturally and linguistically speaking), although they have voted against unifying with Romania. That “small strip of territory east of the Dniester River”–the [Trans-Dniester Region](http://www.bartleby.com/65/tr/TransDnst.html)–has a large population of Slavs (Russians and Ukrainians) who have sought independence or autonomy. There’s also a group of Christian Turkic-speaking people called the Gagauz, who have an autonomous region known as [Gaguazia](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/md-gagau.html) in the southern part of the country. (Here’s a [map of Moldova](http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/country/moldova.html).) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2000, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/4 "2000-12-15T22:35:43Z")
Actually, when I saw the subject for this thread, I had this picture of some Ruthenian-American political machine. “Well, looks like Daley’s got the Ruthenian vote sewed up again…” ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2000, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/5 "2000-12-15T22:50:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\* > Actually, the region which was originally known as Bessarabia is now part of Ukraine. \*\* Most of Bessarabia is now Moldavia. A smaller bit is Ukrainian. [Here’s a link](http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0807295.html). ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/6 "2000-12-16T01:31:52Z")
1. I said that Moldavia/Moldova “historically referred to the area on both sides of the Dniester”; that isn’t correct. I was thinking the Dniester forms the border between Romania and the Republic of Moldova; actually, the Dniester forms the northeastern limit of Moldova (except for, as already mentioned, a small “Trans-Dniester” region east of the river). It’s the Prut River which forms the border between Romania and Moldova, and historic Moldavia lies on both sides of the Prut, not the Dniester. 2. Apparently the region _originally_ referred to as [Bessarabia](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,81064+1+78929,00.html?query=bessarabia) is the coastal portion along the Black Sea. The name was later transferred to the entire region included in what is now the Republic of Moldova. That’s what I was referring to when I said that the “the region which was originally known as Bessarabia is now part of Ukraine”. That gets discussed some on [this page](http://www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/AEGEE/CST-MOLD/bessara.htm): > [@](#): > > After having occupied all of Wallachia and Moldavia in the war against Turkey (1806-1812), the Russian Empire annexed the territory between Prut and Dnestr in 1812. These lands had no particular name before, they were simply part of the Moldavian Principality. Russia had to find a justification that allowed her not to withdraw her troops from this area. They employed a misleading name, stating that in the Treaty of Bucharest of 1812 it was not required to leave Bessarabia. Bessarabia, however, had only been the southern part of what is today known as Bessarabia, also called the Bugeac, but the Russians extended the name ”Bessarabia” to all the region between Prut and Dnestr, so that they could annex it. In fact, this region was the most fertile part of Moldavia, and even bigger than the rump-Moldavia remaining independent. 90% of the population were Romanians. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/7 "2000-12-16T07:17:47Z")
Are the Votes related to the fine people of Chad, in Africa? ::d&r:: ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/8 "2000-12-16T10:19:53Z")
I am of Ruthenian (aka galician, aka trans-carpathia, aka “little russia”, etc) heritage. My folks used to run part of that small “nation” in the 19th century- left when the AH empire started making it less “semi-soveriegn”. Ruthenias are not simply Ukranians by any means. The nation has been passed around like a doobie at a dorm in the 60’s. Part of Poland, then Austria, then Checkoslovakia, then independent for one day, then one of Hitlers proctorates got it, then the USSR, and now Ukrania. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ethnic-votes-and-ruthenians/45807/9 "2000-12-16T21:49:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Are the Votes related to the fine people of Chad, in Africa? Or perhaps they are mortal enemies, like the Serbs and Croats or the Hutus and the Tutsis.