# Etiquette question: Referring to a married woman **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 27, 2022, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672 "2022-07-27T21:26:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![anny\_m](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@anny\_m](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anny_m)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/1 "2022-07-27T21:26:24Z")
Many years ago (according to my vintage copy of Emily Post’s book) a woman who was married or widowed was properly referred to as Mrs. Husband-First-Name Husband-Last-Name. So the woman currently married to John Smith would be called Mrs. John Smith. If John had died while they were married, she’d still be referred to as Mrs. John Smith. However, a woman who was divorced was referred to as Mrs. Own-First-Name Exhusband’s-Last-Name. So if Mary divorced John Smith she would then be referred to as Mrs. Mary Smith. Obviously, nomenclature and honorifics have changed a lot over the years. If Ms. Mary Jones marries Mr. John Smith, these days she’d often still be Ms. Mary Jones. But what if she chooses to use the Mrs. honorific? Can she by the rules of etiquette be Mrs. Mary Jones? Can she be Mrs. Mary Smith if she’s still married to John Smith? It’s my understanding that Washington DC is very conservative when it comes to etiquette rules. But when Melania Trump issued that statement about where she was on January 6, the stationery was imprinted Mrs. Melania Trump. If it had said Ms. Melania Trump or just Melania Trump, I would have found it unexceptional. But to word it Mrs. Melania Trump seemed to me to be a faux pas. Was it? Or is that usage now accepted in the highest ranks of society? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/2 "2022-07-27T21:39:02Z")
> [@anny\_m](#): > > Many years ago (according to my vintage copy of Emily Post’s book) Here’s the current Emily Post guidance, for what it’s worth: > **[Ms, Miss, or Mrs: Guide to Addressing Women & Girls](https://emilypost.com/advice/ms-miss-or-mrs-whats-the-difference)** > > Traditionally, how a woman was addressed when using titles had to do with identifying her marital status, today that’s not all. Here is our guide to women’s titles today.. Note that either (and more) name conventions are acceptable nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/3 "2022-07-27T22:26:18Z")
> [@anny\_m](#): > > But to word it Mrs. Melania Trump seemed to me to be a faux pas. I find it strange that you think this a _faux pas_. In my experience, the vast majority of women who choose to use “Mrs” and to take their husband’s surname will still always use their own first name, i.e. Mrs. Melania Trump. (I think the Emily Post advice that this is used only with a divorced husband has long since shuffled off its mortal coil.) It sounds very old fashioned to call yourself Mrs. Donald Trump. > [@anny\_m](#): > > If it had said Ms. Melania Trump… I would have found it unexceptional. To the contrary, I would have found _this_ more unusual. In my experience, most women who choose to do the “traditional” thing and take their husband’s surname will not be averse to also using the traditional Mrs. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/4 "2022-07-27T22:33:06Z")
The only time I use Mrs. anymore is when I am addressing a letter to **my** wife. And then I use her first name. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2022, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/5 "2022-07-27T23:24:33Z")
The last time I saw a form like “Mrs John Smith” in my universe was with one of my grandmothers. We all thought how odd that was. This would have been c1980. Nothing since then. Anyone thinking that this was remotely the norm or even common today is really out of touch. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/6 "2022-07-28T00:34:48Z")
The only rule of etiquette I am aware of for addressing an individual (not using an official title) is you should call them whatever they wish to be called. If Mary Jones is married to John Smith and styles herself as Ms. Mary Jones, there is no etiquette that allows you to call her Mrs. John Smith, Mrs. Mary Smith, Mrs. Jones, or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/7 "2022-07-28T02:57:54Z")
IIRC, according to Miss Manners c. 1980, Mrs. John Smith would become Mrs. Margaret Smith if she became widowed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/8 "2022-07-28T03:13:03Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > IIRC, according to Miss Manners c. 1980, Mrs. John Smith would become Mrs. Margaret Smith if she became widowed. You do not RC. In Miss Manners’ Guide for the Turn-of-the-Millennium (1983), the well-known etiquette expert notes that “widows retain the same form [of address] they used throughout the marriage” (p. 608). The context is specifically correcting a mistaken assumption that a married woman who used the name “Mrs. John Doe” during her marriage is automatically and nonconsensually switched to “Mrs. Jane Doe” upon widowhood. > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > The only rule of etiquette I am aware of for addressing an individual (not using an official title) is you should call them whatever they wish to be called. If Mary Jones is married to John Smith and styles herself as Ms. Mary Jones, there is no etiquette that allows you to call her Mrs. John Smith, Mrs. Mary Smith, Mrs. Jones, or anything else. This is correct, and is the position that Miss Manners has been upholding for over forty years and counting. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/9 "2022-07-28T03:36:44Z")
You’re right; I stand corrected. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/10 "2022-07-28T03:37:52Z")
Thank you. (curtsies) ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/11 "2022-07-28T03:42:36Z")
A coworker came back from her honeymoon for a fancy work dinner with place cards. Yep, hers read _Mrs. Steve Hubby._ She was so mad and blurted out “Hey! I knew I was losing my last name, but my first name, too, really?” Friends and I still laugh about watching country veteran Hank Snow receiving an award. The applause dies down and he says: “First of all, I’d like to thank my wife, Mrs. Hank Snow…” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/12 "2022-07-28T03:49:18Z")
> [@digs](#): > > A coworker came back from her honeymoon for a fancy work dinner with place cards. Yep, hers read _Mrs. Steve Hubby._ She was so mad and blurted out “Hey! I knew I was losing my last name, but my first name, too, really?” Was this recent? It is now so anachronistic I would have assumed it was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/13 "2022-07-28T03:53:10Z")
I got some stuff addressed to Mrs. HisFirstName OurLastName. I assumed the sender was confused as to my husband’s gender, and gave them to him to open. Seriously, Mrs Mary Smith has been standard and common for women who choose to use “Mrs” for decades, now. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/14 "2022-07-28T04:27:27Z")
My grandmother would still send mail to Dr. and Mrs. Dad’s First Name Last Name. I figure when you’re born in 1922, some habits of etiquette die hard. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/15 "2022-07-28T04:59:51Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@digs](#): > > > > A coworker came back from her honeymoon for a fancy work dinner with place cards. Yep, hers read _Mrs. Steve Hubby._ She was so mad and blurted out “Hey! I knew I was losing my last name, but my first name, too, really?” > > Was this recent? It is now so anachronistic I would have assumed it was a joke. It was a while ago (OMG, just did the math: forty years!), but it was also a Christian organization… not exactly a repository of iconoclasm and gender equality. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/16 "2022-07-28T05:05:38Z")
I still send mail to my parents addressed to Mr. & Mrs. Dad’s First Name Last Name. I was born more than two generations after 1922. 🤷‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/17 "2022-07-28T08:20:17Z")
That seems pretty old-fashioned to me. I had a quick look at our Christmas card list (maintained by my wife) and all joint cards are addressed to first names and family names - no honorifics at all. So - Jane and John Doe. My wife used to get annoyed about letters addressed to her with my first name. There are very few of those these days - only one I can think of and she gets an annual statement from them that always sparks a comment, but is not worth doing anything about. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/18 "2022-07-28T11:35:52Z")
My aunt left a garden club in the 70s because they insisted on doing this. The last time i saw it done unironically would have been in the late 90s at a DAR event that i randomly ended up at. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/19 "2022-07-28T11:44:25Z")
I believe that “proper etiquette” is to address a woman by the name she goes by. I personally can’t recall ever hearing a woman being addressed as, “Mrs. John Doe”. Many or even most women still take their husband’s last name but are referred to as, “Mrs. Jane Doe”. It has slowly become more and more common for women to keep their own name. I certainly would. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2022, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672/20 "2022-07-28T11:56:19Z")
Tangentially related: when she married, my mom stopped using her middle name and substituted her maiden name when filling out forms. She’ll sign her name using the first letter of her maiden name as her middle initial. I do the same (except I never had a middle name - thanks, mom! 😛 ) My daughter, on the other hand, uses her first name, middle name (or initial), husband’s last name on all her assorted paperwork. And as I recall, my maternal grandmother used her middle name, not her maiden name, so maybe it’s not a generational thing? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-referring-to-a-married-woman/968672.md?page=2)