# Etiquette question when ordering wine **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** wine\ **Created:** [March 15, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197 "2019-03-15T21:15:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/21 "2019-03-18T02:11:43Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > BTW, what is wrong with Merlot? Absolutely nothing; it’s a good grape. The Chateau Cheval Blanc the main character in Sideways was hording and ended up drinking out of a plastic cup at the end of the movie is a blend of several grapes, including probably 40% Merlot. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/22 "2019-03-18T02:39:49Z")
Merlot is in fact an absolutely fantastic grape and makes terrific, mellow, robust wines, frequently blended with Cabernet Sauvignon, but often at its best just by itself. Even grapes once regarded as lowly and disreputable, like Grenache, are now the basis of some great wines. Grenache got a bad reputation during Prohibition, when it was one of the few California grapes thick-skinned and robust enough to survive cross-country railroad travel to home-based winemaking ventures, which of course produced swill. But that wasn’t the grape’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/23 "2019-03-18T02:51:38Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Absolutely nothing; it’s a good grape. The Chateau Cheval Blanc the main character in Sideways was hording and ended up drinking out of a plastic cup at the end of the movie is a blend of several grapes, including probably 40% Merlot. 😃 I guess making his special wine Petrus would have been pushing the in-joke too far… I agree with you and Wolfpup: absolutely nothing wrong with Merlot, or even most commonly available vinifera varieties. Rayas and most of the Southern Rhone would likewise be surprised if people had a negative impression of Grenache. I’ve even seen lately, but not tasted, a 45 dollar Trebbiano (a grape best used for making brandy). A lot of whether it’s going to be a great wine has to do with the care taken in the vineyard and the winery. That said, there’s a literal sized lake of mediocre Merlot out there. But that’s true for most every grape variety. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/24 "2019-03-18T03:03:53Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > That said, there’s a literal sized lake of mediocre Merlot out there. But that’s true for most every grape variety. IIRC, the wine character in _Sideways_ with the Merlot spiel was especially into Pinot Noir, which, in my experience at least, is even more saddled with mediocre examples out there. Now, I do prefer my Pinot Noirs compared to my Merlots, but it’s a lot dicier of a proposition to find a decent Pinot Noir to a Merlot in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/25 "2019-03-18T03:13:14Z")
Wanted to echo the advice above to ask for recommendations. I’ve had such good luck asking the wine steward any question I had. Discovered new wines and learned a lot. You can ask “If I like Zinfandels, what do you have that you’d recommend? What else would I like?” If you’re shy about doing this in front of your acquaintances, call ahead\* and ask. \*(if you talk to Franz the wine steward, then you can say hi to him by name when you go there! Impressive…) ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/26 "2019-03-18T03:36:39Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > Absolutely nothing; it’s a good grape. The Chateau Cheval Blanc the main character in Sideways was hording and ended up drinking out of a plastic cup at the end of the movie is a blend of several grapes, including probably 40% Merlot. 😃 As I suspected, a wine snob’s opinion in the movie. Is it not true that for centuries that you had to drink wine at room temperature. Defined, in the modern day, as 70 degrees or whatever, but back in the day, wine was stored in cellars where the temperature was lower. “Room temperature” was lower. And once the wine snobs found that out, suddenly we have to drink wine at 60 degrees, or whatever. I obvioulsly don’t know the exact numbers. A bottle of good Merlot is as good as a bottle of Zinfadel (I think not a respecrted wine?) as a bottle of Pinot Grigio, my personal favorite. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/27 "2019-03-18T03:55:37Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > As I suspected, a wine snob’s opinion in the movie. Is it not true that for centuries that you had to drink wine at room temperature. Defined, in the modern day, as 70 degrees or whatever, but back in the day, wine was stored in cellars where the temperature was lower. “Room temperature” was lower. And once the wine snobs found that out, suddenly we have to drink wine at 60 degrees, or whatever. I obvioulsly don’t know the exact numbers. > > A bottle of good Merlot is as good as a bottle of Zinfadel (I think not a respecrted wine?) as a bottle of Pinot Grigio, my personal favorite. In the words of the renowned sage, [Gregory Jacobs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31A6RjOxE74), (It gets boring, citing to Belloc all the time on this.) > [@](#): > > “Just eat food, try not to be crude or rude > Kill the attitude, chill the serious mood > And do what you like” Well, they didn’t have refrigerators back then, so yes, they were forced to drink wine at whatever temperature it was being stored at. Icing down red wine is often a great idea if you’re dining outside somewhere toasty, like the state of Texas. Or if your living space is quite warm. But really, try it out for yourself. Find a bottle of something that you’ve had a bit of before, so you know how it tastes, put it in the fridge til very cold, and try it. See how things change when it warms up, then figure our _for yourself_, what temperature is best for you. I like reds a touch colder. A pretty knowledgeable wine guy I used to correspond with, had the hypothesis that most of the flavor development that people attributed to aeration in the glass, really had more to do with the wine just warming up and showing more aroma. Be an interesting experiment to try, especially with all of the aerator gadgets floating around these days. All of wine ‘wisdom’ is just a collection of tips and things that other people have thought worked pretty well in the past. But by all means, see if it also works for you. I like Merlots and Zinfandels, and Pinot Grigios (though I usually like them better when they’re labeled as Pinot Gris: same grape, but the style is different.) And there are Zins that I’d treat as seriously as the greatest of Merlots. I don’t think Ridge Lytton Estate, or Turley’s Hayne is quite as good as say, the Petrus I mentioned upthread, nor will they age and develop as long, (and they’re not even in the same galaxy of cost) but they’re both very damned good wines I’d be happy to serve anyone. And I’d much rather have the Ridge with a wide variety of dishes, like BBQ and grilled meats. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/28 "2019-03-18T04:02:25Z")
Yes. Figure out for yourself what you like. I don’t need an “expert” to tell me what wine I should drink at what temperature. Just as I don’t need a beer snob to tell me that a cold Miller High Life (in the cool bottle), or a Pabst (in a can), is not a good beer. Both of them are amazing on a summer’s day. Or even a winter’s day, on a weekend after a hard day’s week at work ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/29 "2019-03-18T11:24:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > - but I’ve never heard the “day before” claim. Aerators and decanters exist to help accelerate breathing for wine that’s just been opened. What I will say about “day after” wines is that some survive 24 hours and potentially even longer very well, an ability often correlated with the quality of the wine, and provided the bottle isn’t much less than half full (and well stoppered, of course). But even as a fervent advocate of the idea that some reds (not all) absolutely must be allowed to breathe for a time, I have never encountered a wine that is actually _ **better** _ the next day IMO than one allowed to properly breathe after opening. I was surprised when I first heard the claim, but I’ve seen several of the wine critics I read say the same. It’s generally best for younger red wines. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/30 "2019-03-18T12:40:09Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > A bottle of good Merlot is as good as a bottle of Zinfadel (I think not a respecrted wine?) Perhaps you’re thinking of white Zinfandel, but, at least in my experience, (red) Zinfandel is a highly respected wine, one of my favorites for single varietal reds. It’s a very big and bold wine, also on the high side of the alcohol scale. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/31 "2019-03-18T14:27:34Z")
Maybe this is totally gauche, but why not cut the Gordian Knot here, and order a daiquiri or some other mixed drink that you know you’ll like? Or is it specifically a wine bar? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/32 "2019-03-18T14:35:46Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > Yes. Figure out for yourself what you like. I don’t need an “expert” to tell me what wine I should drink at what temperature. > > Just as I don’t need a beer snob to tell me that a cold Miller High Life (in the cool bottle), or a Pabst (in a can), is not a good beer. > > Both of them are amazing on a summer’s day. Or even a winter’s day, on a weekend after a hard day’s week at work I drink a lot of beer; occasionally I’ll even drink a PBR (sponsors of a friend’s band), but please do not try to tell us it is a good beer. Similarly I can occasionally enjoy a quarter pounder, yet I’d never try to convince someone it is good food. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/33 "2019-03-18T20:08:10Z")
> [@Mike\_Mabes](#): > > Yes. Figure out for yourself what you like. I don’t need an “expert” to tell me what wine I should drink at what temperature. > > Just as I don’t need a beer snob to tell me that a cold Miller High Life (in the cool bottle), or a Pabst (in a can), is not a good beer. > > Both of them are amazing on a summer’s day. Or even a winter’s day, on a weekend after a hard day’s week at work To paraphrase [The Whisk(e)y Tribe](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCphIm9gI_JbeI0ByZSRt5Mg), “The best [whiskey/wine/beer] is the one you like, drunk the way you like it.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/34 "2019-03-18T20:12:16Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Perhaps you’re thinking of white Zinfandel, but, at least in my experience, (red) Zinfandel is a highly respected wine, one of my favorites for single varietal reds. It’s a very big and bold wine, also on the high side of the alcohol scale. This. Personally, I don’t particularly like Merlot much. Too…ordinary. A good California Zin, OTOH…now there’s a wine you can grapple with. It stands up to everything and is therefore excellent with charred meats and charred vegetables and charred whatever else is on the grill. Ditto a good Malbec. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/35 "2019-03-18T22:03:04Z")
Since we’ve started down this road… I think the common knock on merlot is that it lacks complexity. “Complexity” is one of those ill-defined wine terms that can spark a lot of heated debate, but I kind of like [this website](https://www.totalwine.com/wine-guide/wine-complexity)’s take on it: > [@Total Wine & More](#): > > Perhaps a culinary analogy will serve to clarify complexity. Imagine you are making a fresh salsa. You begin with chopped tomatoes in a bowl. Taste it. There is only one flavor there: The chopped ripe tomato. Now add chopped raw onion and taste it. Two flavors! Now add diced fresh jalapeno: Three flavors and some spice heat as well. Now add some lime juice, then chopped fresh cilantro (five flavors), and finally sweet bell peppers, giving the salsa six flavors. Somewhere along the way, some of these ingredients will interact with each other, creating entirely new flavors. That is complexity. In this analogy, I would compare merlot to the tomato. Nobody should put down tomatoes for being tomatoes, but most people consider them ingredients, rather than something to be eaten on its own. I think this is why merlot is such a common blending grape. Even really good ones are best as part of a more complex whole. ---
**Author:** ![Yorkshire\_Pudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/59ef9b/32.png) [@Yorkshire\_Pudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorkshire_Pudding)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/36 "2019-03-18T23:22:46Z")
Nothing to do with how long your bottle of choice has been open…but if you’re a Zin fan, there’s always Primitivo too. I don’t know how widespread it is in your part of the world, but I do know that’s it’s essentially the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/37 "2019-03-18T23:55:11Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I drink a lot of beer; occasionally I’ll even drink a PBR (sponsors of a friend’s band), but please do not try to tell us it is a good beer. Similarly I can occasionally enjoy a quarter pounder, yet I’d never try to convince someone it is good food. we need a “like” button… so true… I can drink almost any wine or beer…don’t ask me what I like “Best” cause you probably won’t like it… I like IPA’s…Dark Dank Imperial Stouts, "American Strong Ales, Barley wines, APA’s Pilsners and a few other catch phrase beers… and I also LOVE a good dank, chewy cab. Or a Peppery Zinfandel …🙂 I also like PBR or Stag on occasion…Life is good… We need a leafly emoji. ymmv ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/38 "2019-03-19T00:49:12Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Since we’ve started down this road… > I think the common knock on merlot is that it lacks complexity. “Complexity” is one of those ill-defined wine terms that can spark a lot of heated debate, but I kind of like [this website](https://www.totalwine.com/wine-guide/wine-complexity)’s take on it: In this analogy, I would compare merlot to the tomato. Nobody should put down tomatoes for being tomatoes, but most people consider them ingredients, rather than something to be eaten on its own. > > I think this is why merlot is such a common blending grape. Even really good ones are best as part of a more complex whole. OK, but again, explain Petrus, which is just about 100 percent Merlot. And no one complains about its lacking complexity. Or many of the best other Pomerols, like Clinet, and others, which could be labeled Merlot if made in California. Maybe it’s a clone and soil thing? I guess even 20 percent Cab Franc, which is usually the case for La Conseillante and L’Evangile, makes them better wines than they’d be if 100 percent Merlot. I’m just disagreeing that varietally labeled Merlot, even domestic versions like Duckhorn’s or Matanzas Creek’s, are giving up anything in complexity to similarly treated Cabernet Sauvignons. EDIT: We’re still waiting to hear how the night went. Unless I missed it upthread or something. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/39 "2019-03-19T13:59:38Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > OK, but again, explain Petrus, which is just about 100 percent Merlot. And no one complains about its lacking complexity. Or many of the best other Pomerols, like Clinet, and others, which could be labeled Merlot if made in California. Maybe it’s a clone and soil thing? I guess even 20 percent Cab Franc, which is usually the case for La Conseillante and L’Evangile, makes them better wines than they’d be if 100 percent Merlot. > > I’m just disagreeing that varietally labeled Merlot, even domestic versions like Duckhorn’s or Matanzas Creek’s I was always under the impression that a lot of stuff combined to contribute to the complexity of a given wine- terroir, that year’s growing season weather, winemaking procedures, yeasts, aging conditions, and the varietal(s) involved. Any one of those is just a piece of the puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197/40 "2019-03-19T17:36:43Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I was always under the impression that a lot of stuff combined to contribute to the complexity of a given wine- terroir, that year’s growing season weather, winemaking procedures, yeasts, aging conditions, and the varietal(s) involved. > > Any one of those is just a piece of the puzzle. Yeah, of course it’s impossible to paint every grape grown at every vineyard with the same brush. There are generalizations around every varietal, just as there are always particular harvests that defy those generalizations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-question-when-ordering-wine/831197.md?page=3)