# Etiquette: Rising From One's Seat At A Table For A Lady..... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548 "2004-01-15T05:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/41 "2004-01-17T04:35:42Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > I find it interesting that people could make a character judgement based on something so shallow. Maybe the guy who stands up is a violent misogynist, but is now stamped with the “gentleman” seal of approval. And maybe the other guy who didn’t stand up is a nice person but everybody should shun him? Let me preface this by saying I don’t have a particular large N value - a few dozen at most. I can say, without exception, the men that I have dated that have given a nod towards etiquette, and publicly showing respect for me as well as my parents, have been more respectful in private as well. Those that have turned up their nose a basic social nicities in public have been more obnoxious, assholish, and generally unplesant in private as well. As I said, my N is only about 40 or so, but I’m sure my r[2] is in the high nines. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/42 "2004-01-17T07:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > BTW, if you think that only the “elderly” practice good manners, you really do need to get out more.\*\* I don’t think that, nor did I imply that. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/43 "2004-01-17T08:35:52Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > For your further edification, I don’t judge people under any circumstances until they force the necessity on me. Really? > [@LouisB](#): > > A man who can’t/won’t follow these guidlines is not a gentleman, and a woman who can’t/won’t accept such behaviour is not a lady. Sounds suspiciously like a judgement to me, and, apparently, it sounds the same to quite a few other people in this thread. While i don’t much care whether or not you think i’m a “gentleman,” it’s clear that for you to decide that someone is not a gentleman (or a lady, for that matter) constitutes a value judgement on your part. And, as you make quite clear in the quotation, you are willing to make such a judgement using fairly scanty criteria. > [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I can say, without exception, the men that I have dated that have given a nod towards etiquette, and publicly showing respect for me as well as my parents, have been more respectful in private as well. See, the problem here is that you fail to qualify your statement. You say “etiquette,” instead of “a particular type or aspect of etiquette.” While i see no need to stand when a woman approaches the table if i know her (as i said previously, i usually stand to greet someone i haven’t met before), this does not mean that i disregard etiquette altogether. And you are yet to demonstrate that there is direct link between this particular aspect of etiquette and the broader issue of respect. The fact that _you_ feel there is a connection for yourself does not necessarily make it so for everyone else. As **The Controvert** says: > [@The Controvert](#): > > Maybe the guy who stands up is a violent misogynist, but is now stamped with the “gentleman” seal of approval. And maybe the other guy who didn’t stand up is a nice person but everybody should shun him? The point in this whole issue is that different people have different ideas about what constitutes appropriate etiquette. The main difference seems to be that those who feel that standing for a woman is important are, if this thread is any indication, more willing to make blanket negative judgements abut those who don’t follow the same practice. As i said in an earlier post, i really don’t mind whether you stand for a woman or not, and the fact that a person does this certainly doesn’t cause me to think less of him. I’m perfectly aware of the reasons that people have for doing it, and i respect those reasons. The only thing that got me in a high dudgeon in this thread (and i suspect that the same might be true of others who share my position) is the sneering, morally-superior tone adopted by some of those who do follow the custom. This tends to give the impression–accurate or not–that they do so more for their own self-satisfaction than out of any respect for women. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/44 "2004-01-17T15:04:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _by mhendo_If you think that the days of such so-called “chivalrous” and “gentlemanly” behaviour constituted a time when women had higher social standing than men, may i suggest that you get yourself to a library and pick up a few history books. Actually, **mhendo** , it is you who needs to go to a library and get an etiquette book. **Margeuerite** was quite correct. In fact, women (or, more accurately, _ladies_) did hold higher social status than men in the days when these customs were coined. Gentlemen deferred to ladies socially in many different ways: a gentleman rose whan a lady joined his party, he asked a ladies permission before smoking in her presence, he waited for the lady to initiate a handshake, he tipped his hat upon meeting a lady on the street, and so on and on. All of these customs absolutely proclaimed a lady as ‘ranking’ a gentleman in the social sphere. It is true, of course, that none of this gave a lady any _real_ power or privilege outside of the social realm. Nonetheless, in etiquette, if nowhere else, it is perfectly correct to say that ladies always came first. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/45 "2004-01-17T15:54:43Z")
> [@Jess](#): > > Actually, **mhendo** , it is you who needs to go to a library and get an etiquette book. **Margeuerite** was quite correct. In fact, women (or, more accurately, _ladies_) did hold higher social status than men in the days when these customs were coined. Gentlemen deferred to ladies socially in many different ways: a gentleman rose whan a lady joined his party, he asked a ladies permission before smoking in her presence, he waited for the lady to initiate a handshake, he tipped his hat upon meeting a lady on the street, and so on and on. All of these customs absolutely proclaimed a lady as ‘ranking’ a gentleman in the social sphere. It is true, of course, that none of this gave a lady any _real_ power or privilege outside of the social realm. Nonetheless, in etiquette, if nowhere else, it is perfectly correct to say that ladies always came first. Well, i guess i’ll have to cede your point, while noting that your last sentence demonstrates just how limited your analysis is. If you’re so narrow as to restrict your definition of the social realm and your analysis of social standing to such minor points of etiquette, then there’s not much i can say that will change your mind, and you’re right that etiquette books did prescribe such behaviour. I guess that i was just hoping for a more complex understanding of human society, one that recognizes that the term “social” encompasses much more than just the dining room or the parlour, and that understands that social, cultural, political, and economic spheres are all overlapping and interrelated. That is why i suggest reading some good, analytical history books, because they help one to understand those etiquette books _in their historical context_. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/46 "2004-01-18T03:59:47Z")
I _like_ it when a man gets up upon my arrival. Call it archaic but I believe you young whippersnappers could use a lesson or two in socially acceptable behavior and manners. My husband also opens my car door, takes my coat, and helps me with my chair. He doesn’t wear a baseball cap indoors, he says please and thank you, and he doesn’t belch in public. I know social customs evolve over time; but I have a tinge of sadness when not only does my son not share in these practices, but also his girlfriend would think him nuts if he did. ---
**Author:** ![Pablito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@Pablito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pablito)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/47 "2004-01-18T04:44:08Z")
Interesting discussion. Certainly displaying manners does not alone make one a gentleman, nor does their lack mean that the individual is a bad person. It might be helpful in this thread to remember that the essential purpose of manners is to help us be thoughtful to and show respect toward others. We shake hands and look a person in the eyes when we’re introduced. We let other people finish what they’re saying rather than interrupting them. We open the door for people to make it easier for them to enter. We say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ to express our appreciation when someone offers or does something for us. And we stand when other guests arrive in order to make a break in whatever we were occupied with prior to their arrival and to facilitate their entrance into the discussion. To suggest that being polite is freighted with antiquated hegemony or reflects rigid social hierarchy is to miss the point entirely. Manners and being polite are just about showing that you care about others. Yes, there are other ways to do this, but none quite so direct and effective. Absence of manners doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, but it does mean that you’re going to have to work harder to overcome the poor initial impression you made. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/48 "2004-01-18T05:55:50Z")
Just standing up for no reason strikes me as awkward. But I always stand up if I’m going to shake someone’s hand or kiss a woman on the cheeks as a greeting or goodbye. Since usually someone joining my party will require this kind of greeting, I will stand. If the situation is such that a person doesn’t require this sort of hello, I will sit. But simply standing by itself feels tremendously weird. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/49 "2004-01-19T00:17:53Z")
I don’t understand. If I am sitting and someone enters the room, comes to a table or leaves I am supposed to stand up. Then what? Obviously when they come/go its to shake their hand/hug/kiss them but what if these aren’t normally done? Just get up and sort of chill until they leave/sit down? ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/50 "2004-01-19T08:18:20Z")
If you consider standing up simply for reasons of politeness is useless, so what’s the deal with shaking someones hand? There is no point to it either. But people do it all the time. Actually, you will stand up for someone who’s hand you’re going to shake and you will remain seated for a friend, to whom you just say ‘Hi’. The reason might be this: If you don’t stand up to shake someones hand, you risk knocking over your galss of water… ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/51 "2004-01-19T08:45:11Z")
I am a very polite person. I say “please” and “thank you”. When I am the first to reach a door I hold it for others (others in my party or strangers who happen to be using the same door). When I am seated on a crowded bus or train I will offer my seat to someone who has greater need of it. When I am seated at a table I will rise to greet those who arrive to join me and to say goodbye when they leave. Notice I have not specified women. If you won’t do these things for a man don’t do them for a woman either. If you treat people equally with respect you are a respectful person. If you do not treat people equally, simply learning a few “tricks” is not enough to cover for your own flawed character. . ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/52 "2004-01-24T19:30:19Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I must say that i’m rather bemused–and a little amused–at those who seem to think that whether you follow this archaic custom or not is somehow indicative of your overall character or your concern for women. > > Remember that, in the eighteenth century, the gentlemen who rose when a lady came to the table were often the same men who supported the law of coverture, and other laws that restricted women’s rights to own property and women’s rights in general. > > In the nineteenth century, the gentlemen who rose when a lady came to the table were often the same men who consistently argued against women’s right to vote, or to initiate divorce proceedings. > > For much of the twentieth century, the gentlemen who rose when a lady came to the table were often the same men who thought that women shouldn’t be allowed to have careers, and should stick to the role of home-making and child-rearing. > > The problem with so many of these gender-based social customs is that an important part of their function was to add a veneer of respect, in order to make up for the fact that women were severely restricted in the level at which they could participate in society. Men were willing to let women have their seat on a train, but not willing to let them have the vote, or a job. Which do you think shows a greater amount of respect? > > The fact that i don’t rise for a woman when she walks to the table does not indicate a lack of respect for her, and that fact that you do is not, by itself, any real indication that you do respect her. > > Note that i’m not making an argument about general politeness here. If i’m waiting at a restaurant table and the other guests arrive, i will often rise to meet them, particularly if it is a formal occasion, or if there are people in th party that i have not met before. If, on the other hand, it’s an informal get-together among a few friends, i see no need to stand when the women arrive, or when they need to go to the bathroom. > > Similarly with opening doors or other everyday interactions. If i’m going through a door and someone is coming through behind me, or someone is entering from the other direction, i will hold it open, whether that person is a man or a woman. > > On preview, i agree completely with **acsenray** ’s position. > > And if people want to stand when a woman comes to the table, knock yourselves out. It makes no difference to me. But to suggest that those who choose not to follow this custom have been “raised by hyenas” is ignorance in the extreme. If you wanted to debate then post in Great Debates. If you want to put words into my fingers then post in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/53 "2004-01-24T20:29:06Z")
> [@AcidKid](#): > > If you wanted to debate then post in Great Debates. > If you want to put words into my fingers then post in the Pit. Methinks you’re a little oversenstitive. Or maybe just lacking in reading comprehension abilities. I put no words in your fingers (whatever the hell that means); i simply gave my own interpretation of your attitude, and outlined some reasons why i feel it to be antiquated. Cry about it if you like, or start a Pit thread if you’re that offended. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/54 "2004-01-24T21:55:35Z")
I think that most people value manners of one sort or another (would you appreciate it if you invited someone over for dinner and they came without shoes or a shirt and belched at the end of a meal?). Many people get their shirt in a knot (or if they’re british, their knickers in a twist 🙂 ) over what they see as archaic matters while forgetting that all manners are simply a way of showing respect to a fellow human being; just because someone has an old-fashioned way of showing respect doesn’t make that respect any less valid. I don’t offer to shake hands with anyone; I’ve never got into that habit. However, I certainly don’t object if someone (male or female) wishes to shake hands with me. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/55 "2004-01-24T23:53:43Z")
> [@dmartin](#): > > I think that most people value manners of one sort or another (would you appreciate it if you invited someone over for dinner and they came without shoes or a shirt and belched at the end of a meal?). Many people get their shirt in a knot (or if they’re british, their knickers in a twist 🙂 ) over what they see as archaic matters while forgetting that all manners are simply a way of showing respect to a fellow human being; just because someone has an old-fashioned way of showing respect doesn’t make that respect any less valid. > > I don’t offer to shake hands with anyone; I’ve never got into that habit. However, I certainly don’t object if someone (male or female) wishes to shake hands with me. You’re exactly right. We all value manners, and we all make our own evaluations over which manners are valuable and useful, and which we can live without. While i choose not to follow what i see as the archaic practice of standing on the arrival of a woman, i don’t have any problem at all with other people who show respect this way. I made this very clear in an earlier post–i don’t look down on or ridicule people who practice this piece of etiquette. All i was getting my “knickers in a twist” about was the fact that some people who _do_ choose to stand also insist on casting aspersions upon those of us who do not. “Raised by hyenas” is one phrase that was used. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/56 "2004-01-25T00:25:12Z")
Etiquette, IMHO, is a set of rules used by a social group to govern social interactions. What’s considered polite by one group may actually be rude among other people. For example, in my own social group (young Orthodox Jewish adults), most of us don’t touch members of the opposite sex, meaning that I’d never offer to shake a guy’s hand, and would be taken a bit aback if one of my guy friends stuck their hand out to me. OTOH, with pretty much everybody else in America, hand-shaking is normal, and I certainly shake the hands of people that I’ve just been introduced to. Specific acts of politeness exist to show respect for the people you’re interacting with, not to do the things in and of themselves. (Yeah, I know handshaking evolved to make sure that the other guy wasn’t going for his sword, but I doubt that’s why the vast majority of people do it now.) So if getting up when another person joins your group is considered polite _in your social circles_, go for it. If in your group (like in mine) nobody’s ever heard of such a thing, don’t feel obligated. But don’t assume that the rules used by your group are sacrosanct and intrinsically better than those of other groups. ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/57 "2004-01-25T18:56:10Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > i simply gave my own interpretation of your attitude Interpertations of attitudes do not belong in General Questions. > [@](#): > > General Questions > Got a factual question for the Teeming Millions (and possibly Cecil) to consider? Post it here. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548/58 "2004-01-25T21:45:23Z")
> [@AcidKid](#): > > Interpertations of attitudes do not belong in General Questions. Thanks, Junior Mod. Be sure to tell everyone else in this thread. In fact, make the memo out to yourself as well. Your first post spoke of “demoting” someone from the status of lady to the status of woman, which is little more than a personal position on your part, and hardly a factual answer to the general question of what society does. Your next post said: > [@](#): > > Then consider me unreasonable for prefering to act like a gentleman instead of being just a man. Nothing but a value judgment there. Also not applicable to GQ. In fact, this question should never have been in GQ in the first place. Such questions of how people behave, which inevitably involve values and subjective judgments, probably belong in IMHO, or perhaps the Pit or GD. I actually reported the thread to a mod suggesting it be moved, but had no response, perhaps due to all the kerfuffle with the software changeover. And i notice you have no problem when someone who agrees with you breaks the GQ rules, as when **Ruby** said > [@](#): > > I like it when a man gets up upon my arrival. Call it archaic but I believe you young whippersnappers could use a lesson or two in socially acceptable behavior and manners. and when **Marguerite** said > [@](#): > > In social settings, I become terribly embarrassed when a man does not stand or when he offers his hand to me; and I still don’t know whether I’m embarrassed for myself (that I expect such treatment in our coarse world) or for him (that he honestly doesn’t know what to do). I’ve gotten used to it, but in my case that “meaningless old-fashioned gesture” would save me a great deal of embarrassment. and when **Balle\_M** said: > [@](#): > > It’s nice to know that there are still some people who do not appear to have been raised by hyenas. Double standards, perhaps? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etiquette-rising-from-ones-seat-at-a-table-for-a-lady/224548.md?page=2)