# Etymological link between toll and troll? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 26, 2001, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230 "2001-08-26T21:57:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2001, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/1 "2001-08-26T21:57:59Z")
I have heard it suggested that the name of a “toll bridge” refers to the idea of a “troll” lying in wait under a bridge, demanding “protection money”, as in fairy stories. I understand that the English word “toll” is ultimately derived from the greek, _telos_, but one stubborn person just counters that by saying that _troll_ comes from the same source. “Troll” is of Scandinavian origin. It makes sense to me that Scandinavian languages are Germanic and should therefore have some commonality with English, but I don’t know anything 'bout Nordic languages, and they sound much more _foreign_ than southern Germanic languages. Can some kind Viking give me some insight into the etymology of “Troll,” so I can sleep at night? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/2 "2001-08-26T23:35:47Z")
Neither my _Chambers Dictionary of Etymology_ nor my _Oxford Dictionary of Etymology_ say the origins are the same. They aren’t. Ask your “stubborn person” to give you a cite from an entymology dictionary. They can’t. Hell, just ask them “upon what do you base your assertion?” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2001, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/3 "2001-08-26T23:44:49Z")
The Trolls of ancient Scandinavia were the original race of Giants (similar to the Greek Titans). Later, the word took on the meaning of spiritually evil creatures and was applied to diminutive folk (such as ogres and critters under bridges). The **OED** provides no earlier version of the word in that sense that could be linked to the Greek _télos_ and the transliteration from the ancient Scandinavian equates pretty regularly to _troll_ or _trold_ with no real variants. Its derivants include variations on _trylla_, but nothing that looks like the Greek word. The word for fees, as noted, came from the Greek _télos_ that picked up an omicron in place of the epsilon fairly early. On the other hand, I have never seen a construction in which _tel-_ or _tol-_ transformed into _trol-_. Your friend may associate taxes and gods, but there does not seem to be any reason to associate them, here, on the basis of etymology. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/4 "2001-08-26T23:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > Ask your “stubborn person” to give you a cite from an **entymology** dictionary. They can’t. It really _is_ bugging me. 😉 Thanks **tomndebb** , (and **samclem!** ) That’ll fix 'im. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2001, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/5 "2001-08-27T00:00:03Z")
Preview is my friend. Preview is my friend. Must:::preview… ---
**Author:** ![Tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@Tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/6 "2023-10-12T14:19:06Z")
Like, I get this post is well over 20 years old, but I just had to say thanks for the explanation lmao. I was wondering about this for a while 😅 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/7 "2023-10-12T14:49:06Z")
Even though the word origins are unrelated is the association of trolls with bridges due to the similarity of the phrases ‘toll bridge’ and ‘troll bridge’, or did these phrases have separate etymologies? ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/8 "2023-10-12T17:11:58Z")
That seems unlikely to me. The association of trolls with bridges apparently dates to the fairy tale _Three Billy Goats Gruff_, collected in Norway and first published (in Norwegian) in 1841. I don’t speak Norwegian, but unless the words in that language for “toll” and “troll” are as similar as they are in English, “toll bridge” couldn’t have influenced the fairy tale. (FWIW Google Translate says Norwegian for “toll bridge” is “bombo” while Norwegian for “troll” is “troll”.) ---
**Author:** ![Tic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@Tic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/9 "2023-10-12T17:46:48Z")
Looks like my post revived the thread :o ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/10 "2023-10-12T17:56:03Z")
Old Norse for “toll” is “tollr”; “troll” is “troll”. So the similarity is still there. Cites: [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/truzlą](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/truzl%C4%85) [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/tullaz](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/tullaz) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/11 "2023-10-12T18:23:29Z")
“Ask not for whom the Internet Trolls. They troll for thee.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/12 "2023-10-12T19:47:57Z")
The Norwegian word for ‘bridge’ is ‘bro’. In Old Norse it’s ‘ᛒᚱᛁᛞᚷᛖ’. I haven’t figured out how that’s pronounced yet. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/13 "2023-10-12T20:02:52Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I understand that the English word “toll” is ultimately derived from the greek, _telos_, but one stubborn person just counters that by saying that _troll_ comes from the same source. 22 years ago this was just a persistent and wilfully disagreeable person, now they’d be called a troll. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/14 "2023-10-12T20:30:07Z")
In Norwegian, a _trollmann_ is what you would call a wizard. The word clearly has to do with magic, and fuck-all to do with “bridge”, which is _bru._ [_bro_ would be a more Danish style of Norwegian.] > [@TriPolar](#): > > In Old Norse it’s ‘ᛒᚱᛁᛞᚷᛖ’. I haven’t figured out how that’s pronounced yet. I don’t get the joke. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/15 "2023-10-12T21:01:26Z")
That’s what a translator app said was the Old Norse word for ‘bridge’. If it’s pronounced like ‘bro’ or ‘bru’ there’s a lot of wasted letters there. Do you know how to pronounce it? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/16 "2023-10-12T21:29:43Z")
In that case the “translator” app is having you on, and there is no way to pronounce it. It seems someone took the English word BRIDGE and simply swapped each letter with its common transliteration into Elder Futhark (a runic-style Germanic alphabet). Nothing to do with Old Norse (bridge = _brú_ in Old Norse): > **[The Old Norse Dictionary: The Language of the Sagas - Homepage](https://oldnorse.org/2020/09/06/the-old-norse-dictionary/)** > > The Old Norse dictionary below (from Viking Language 1) compiles everything you need to read the sagas in their original language. ETA cf what a Saga written in Old Norse actually looks like: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Lbs_fragm_82%2C_0001v_-_1.jpg/566px-Lbs_fragm_82%2C_0001v_-_1.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Lbs_fragm_82%2C_0001v_-_1.jpg/566px-Lbs_fragm_82%2C_0001v_-_1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/17 "2023-10-12T21:50:53Z")
This thread is a great reminder that the Dope is older than being to look up such questions in an instant online. 2001 was a different world, even though it was yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/18 "2023-10-13T00:22:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Later, the word took on the meaning of spiritually evil creatures and was applied to diminutive folk (such as ogres and critters under bridges). This is the first I’ve ever heard “ogres” referred to as “diminutive folk”. And while “troll” can refer to creatures both large or small (with wild pink hair), the ones under bridges are always the large ones. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/19 "2023-10-13T00:57:17Z")
Extremely large. See the documentary [Troll Hunter](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1740707/) for details. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2023, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230/20 "2023-10-13T00:59:52Z")
Well that’s disappointing. Imagine! A random web site providing useless results. So any connection between Toll Bridges and Troll Bridges is accidental. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/etymological-link-between-toll-and-troll/78230.md?page=2)