# EU foreign ministers undermine anti-genocide efforts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2002, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767 "2002-10-24T23:07:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/21 "2002-10-25T14:44:30Z")
**Sparc** you’re a class act 🙂 I meant to say this in the WN thread but I’ll say it here. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/22 "2002-10-25T14:50:57Z")
Here’s a slightly less hysterical version of the news item. [http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L18441147](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L18441147) > [@](#): > > 18 Oct 2002 16:00 > Africa meeting switched so Mugabe can attend > > COPENHAGEN, Oct 18 (Reuters) - The European Union has accepted Mozambique’s offer to host a meeting between the EU and a group of poor southern African countries, which would enable Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe to attend. > > The ministerial-level meeting between the EU, a bloc of 15 prosperous West European countries, and the 14-nation Southern African Development Community (SADC) had been scheduled to take place in Copenhagen. > > The meeting will now be held on November 7-8 in Maputo, Mozambique’s capital, the Danish EU presidency said in a statement. Mozambique has not joined the ban on Mugabe. > > “It is important that the meeting should take place and that the dialogue between the EU and the countries in southern Africa continue,” Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller said. > > “The EU member states have been an important partner for many years and are contributing considerable assistance, not least in the current food crisis,” he said in the statement, referring to the shortages of food that threaten millions of people in southern Africa. So it’s important that they talk. Gee, I’d say, “Props to the Suits for being flexible.” This means that they all have to fly to Maputo (Motto: “More Than Just Your Average African Hellhole”), when they could have been meeting in Copenhagen (Motto: “Porn Now”). [http://travel.lycos.com/destinations/location.asp?pid=324593](http://travel.lycos.com/destinations/location.asp?pid=324593) > [@](#): > > Mozambique was colonized by Portugal in the 15th century, and visitors will find this influence to be very much in evidence in the country’s architectural design and cultural customs. The capital city, Maputo – a beautiful seacoast town formerly known as Lourenco Marques – is built like a miniature Lisbon, replete with tile floors and sidewalk cafes. > > Western visitors are well advised to take Malaria precautions before arrival, and to avoid eating unpeeled fruits and vegetables or drinking tap water. Suit #1: “Look, a tile floor!” Suit #2: “Yes! And over there–a cafe! Shall we examine it?” Suit #1: “Yes, but do not eat any unpeeled fruits or vegetables.” And no doubt they will be staying at the prestigious Holiday Inn. [http://www.afrol.com/News2001/moz010\_hotel\_maputo.htm](http://www.afrol.com/News2001/moz010_hotel_maputo.htm) > [@](#): > > afrol News, 13 June - The Mozambican President, Joaquin Chissano, on Monday inaugurated the country’s so far largest investment in the tourism sector in the capital Maputo. The new “Holiday Inn” hotel stood as a symbol for the new growth sector for the boom country. > > Chissano assisted in the inauguration of the prestigious Holiday Inn hotel in Maputo on Monday. In his speech, he emphasized on the great potential in investments in the tourism sector. Investments also served the country’s other economic sectors as a factor to “make the economic development of Mozambique more dynamic”. > > The country remains an ‘undiscovered’ pearl within the Southern African zone of successful tourism industries. Um, “undiscovered pearl” is standard TravelAgent-speak for “there’s nothing to do”. The official Mozambique Tourism website. [http://www.mozambique.mz/turismo/emaputo.htm](http://www.mozambique.mz/turismo/emaputo.htm) I rest my case. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/23 "2002-10-25T15:47:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparc \*. Pro Primo the attacked group, including myself, aren’t exactly known to argue against morality or support what is generally viewed as the immoral stand, quite the contrary. You’re a leftist, aren’t you? 😛 > [@](#): > > Pro secundo no-one said anything about thinking that the Zimbabwe government does not deserve to be pressured through sanctions, or that the people would not deserve a regime change, or did we? You haven’t yet said whether you support the sanctions. > [@](#): > > So the sanctions where pathetic and feeble anyway, and then ignored. What are you trying to say here? That the EU actually supports Mugabe, or that the EU is a corrupt cesspool of self-interested politicos? The latter. That point was already established in an earlier thread by quotes from the EU’s ex-head of finance and others. > [@](#): > > Further; what the steaming fucking hell that is the land of Gog and Magog does this whole issue have to do with Israel??? That’s a fair point. I might well have left Israel out of the thread. > [@](#): > > All that being said I agree that the situation in Zimbabwe is terrible and needs amends, but how? Like **yojimbo** points out, not that many people’s interest-meter hits the red and hot when anything African is mentioned… Right, it’s a tough challenge. > [@](#): > > Another thing worth mentioning for the sake of balance is the possibility that the foreign ministers of the EU felt that isolating Zimbabwe from such a summit would be counter-productive to the pressure that they are bringing to sway the country. **Duck Duck Goose** made a similar point, writing > [@](#): > > So it’s important that they talk. Gee, I’d say, “Props to the Suits for being flexible.” You both have a point, and yet it’s unsatisfactory. There’s something to be said for these sanctions and something to be said for having Zimbabwean reps at meetings, but it’s logically impossible to do both simultaneously. **DDG** , thank you for your cite. It indicates that the sanction policy undermined by Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller was not the EU’s alone, but was a joint policy of the EU, together with the United States, Canada, New Zealand and Australia. IMHO it was not right for this Minister to unilaterally undermine a broad international agreement. I fully withdraw my slam about the EU ministers wanting to meet in a plush location. **DDG** , your argument has convinced me that the OP was wrong in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/24 "2002-10-25T21:09:42Z")
**december1** and **december2** : _1: In a feeble effort to do something about Robert Mugabe’s genocidal government in Zimbabwe, the EU had adopted travel restrictions on Zimbabwean government officials._ _2: …the sanction policy undermined by Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller was not the EU’s alone, but was a joint policy of the EU, together with the United States, Canada, New Zealand and Australia._ _1: Thanks a lot ministers! …Without them, you wouldn’t have an excuse to use tax money to stay at lavish hotels and eat at gourmet restaurants._ \*2: I fully withdraw my slam about the EU ministers wanting to meet in a plush location. \* _1: And, this is the same European Union which lectures the US and Israel on moral matters._ \*2: That’s a fair point. I might well have left Israel out of the thread. \* _1: Secondly, the EU sanction is a joke. […] Finally, some EU leaders undermining their own feckless policy._ \*2: You both have a point, and yet it’s unsatisfactory. There’s something to be said for these sanctions and something to be said for having Zimbabwean reps at meetings, but it’s logically impossible to do both simultaneously. \* You know, **december** , if you would bother to do a little background research and a little logical thinking **before** you post an inflammatory rant, you wouldn’t have to embarrass yourself by eating so much of your OP! Now that you seem to have calmed down a little, I join other posters in inquiring what you think the EU and US **should** do about the Mugabe regime. I note that [State Department officials](http://www.africaonline.com/site/Articles/1,3,49045.jsp) apparently do not consider the Zimbabwean genocide important enough to justify the sort of intervention that is being threatened for Iraq: > [@](#): > > …Bush administration officials dismissed the notion the United States would use anything more than persuasion to bring about a change of government there. … [O]fficials here say there is no comparison between the absolute dictatorship in Baghdad and the situation in Harare, where they say democratic institutions still function despite “tainted” elections in March that gave President Robert Mugabe another six years in office. > > The officials say the US approach will be to support and encourage independent media outlets, human rights advocates and other elements of a pluralistic society in Zimbabwe, and to prod neighbouring governments to press for democratic change there. Which is cool, but sounds pretty much like what the EU approach is too: in fact, even their unscrupulous evasion of the sanctions policy, as **DDG** points out, is precisely so that they will be able to “prod neighbouring governments to press for democratic change” by holding this meeting. Since, as you now admit, the Zimbabwean situation “is a tough challenge”, what are you proposing we should do about it? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/25 "2002-10-25T21:36:48Z")
**Kimstu** , my attorneys will be contacting you re: billing for the heart attack caused by the intitial viewing of your posts, labeling " **december 1 & december 2** , the “omygodnohe’sbreeding” nearly caused my demise. 😉 and **Fenris** I rarely do this but : “Me Too”, can I blame **Twisty** too??? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/26 "2002-10-25T22:23:41Z")
Whilst state sponsored terrorism is ugly and reprehensible, I have yet to see true evidence of genocide. Perhaps a few cites on the thousands of deaths of some repressed group would be instructive. What we do have in Zimbabwe is a regime that eliminate political opponents and has done for decades, but this itself is not genocide. **Decembeber** I note that you seem to choose the terms, use them accurately please, Mugabe is keen to eliminate any opposition, be they white descendants, black or simply from another tribe, murder of political opponents is not yet defined as genocide and I suggest you look the term up in any dictionary. I do not pretend Mugabe is anything but a tribal gangster, but to try and place responsiblity on another party is just sick and this , by extension, makes you sick. Would you care to elaborate how in any direct way EU nations bear responsibility for the behaviour of Mugabe’s state supported thugs, or will you have the moral courage to back off and say that the regime in Zimbabwe bears it own unique responsiblilty for the evil it currently enacts. Me, I would guess you are a coward, you will hold anything and anybody to blame for actions that they have little influence over. I have seen the garbage you have posted to date, it is racist, it is biased, it ignores humanity and completely bypasses reality, you, sir are a fool!! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/27 "2002-10-25T22:57:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > **Kimstu** , my attorneys will be contacting you re: billing for the heart attack caused by the intitial viewing of your posts, labeling " **december 1 & december 2** That’s not the worst of it, **wring**. We go all the way from **december 1** to **december 31**. 😃 Happy New Year! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/28 "2002-10-26T00:02:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > **You know, december, if you would bother to do a little background research and a little logical thinking before you post an inflammatory rant, you wouldn’t have to embarrass yourself by eating so much of your OP!** december starting a thread after doing research is as about as likely as the Weekly World News running a true story. Or the executives of Enron admitting they ran the company into the ground. Or the US Congress voting to lower their salary. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/29 "2002-10-26T00:06:53Z")
Sorry, should have been “responsible research.” I have no doubt december does research prior to posting, problem is he ignores the bits that don’t agree with his predrawn conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/30 "2002-10-26T01:39:25Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* I join other posters in inquiring what you think the EU and US **should** do about the Mugabe regime. I note that State Department officials apparently do not consider the Zimbabwean genocide important enough to justify the sort of intervention that is being threatened for Iraq: > [@](#): > > …Bush administration officials dismissed the notion the United States would use anything more than persuasion to bring about a change of government there. … [O]fficials here say there is no comparison between the absolute dictatorship in Baghdad and the situation in Harare, where they say democratic institutions still function despite “tainted” elections in March that gave President Robert Mugabe another six years in office. > > The officials say the US approach will be to support and encourage independent media outlets, human rights advocates and other elements of a pluralistic society in Zimbabwe, and to prod neighbouring governments to press for democratic change there. That State Department quote makes me want to puke. A tyrannical government is conducting genocide, and this is the best our State Department can come up with. I’m happy to move this thread to a discussion of what the world community should do about Zimbabwe. I hope other posters will contribute, because I have no expertise. What the world’s obligation is to purely internal crimes against humanity? The general rule seems to be not to overthrow a dreadful government if they’re not causing trouble to other countries. ISTM that this rule isn’t good enough. When a government is doing something truly horrendous to its own people, the world should take action – militarily if need be. Ideally this action would be through some international organization, if there were one that was up to the job. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767/31 "2002-10-26T03:09:53Z")
**december** , why don’t you go hunt up **JanL** ’s board? I think you’d be a lot happier there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eu-foreign-ministers-undermine-anti-genocide-efforts/133767.md?page=1)