# Eunuchs **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 12, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329 "2006-04-12T04:24:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/21 "2006-04-14T04:29:15Z")
I didn’t think you would need to shave at all, and I think it would also basically eliminate acne and hair loss, two issues that have been a thorn in my side for years. I am completely serious when I say that there is only one thing stopping me from going ahead with it(well, aside from medical costs). You should see the faces of my male friends when I bring it up in polite conversation. I’ve had no luck convincing them of the benefits or to join me though. Perhaps one day I will make myself useful to the SDMB and start an “ask the castratii” thread? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/22 "2006-04-14T04:34:28Z")
[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] I didn’t think you would need to shave at all, and I think it would also basically eliminate acne and hair loss, two issues that have been a thorn in my side for years. I am completely serious when I say that there is only one thing stopping me from going ahead with it(well, aside from medical costs). You should see the faces of my male friends when I bring it up in polite conversation. I’ve had no luck convincing them of the benefits or to join me though. Perhaps one day I will make myself useful to the SDMB and start an “ask the castratii” thread? [/QUOTE] Plus, it’s a lot harder to climb onto the [comet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Applewhite) when you’ve got those balls weighting you down. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/23 "2006-04-14T04:53:48Z")
Orchiodectomy. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/24 "2006-04-14T05:09:04Z")
What do female dopers think of all this? Would you go for a willowy Orlando Bloom type with a soft voice, clear skin, full head of hair, a gentle disposition who can keep it up all night with no chance of accidental pregnancy? Although I suppose with the reduced sex drive, I’d be too busy curing cancer and conquering the world to concern myself with trifles the likes of you. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/25 "2006-04-14T05:21:52Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] Orchiodectomy. [/QUOTE] Somehow I’m imagining you as a Laugh-In go-go dancer who when the music stops says that into the camera (before the screen cuts to Arte Johnson). I won’t speculate as to the accuracy of the following statement but I will give a cite below the quote: “The ancient Greeks…used castration only to punish rapists, and the offender was called a _spao_, meaning “to draw out” or “drag”. Despised in Greek society and denied employment, such men are said to have masqueraded as women- the origin of the slang expression “drag” for a man in woman’s attire.” Panati, Charles. _Panati’s Extraordinary Endings of Practically Everything and Everybody_. New York: Harper & Row, 1989. (p. 294) Panati also states that ancient Romans used the following terms to refer to the types of eunuchs: _thlibio_- a man whose testicles have been crushed between stones as a punishment (not technically a eunuch as he may have testicles but they’re just dessicated and destroyed) _spandone_- the concubine class, these were men whose testicles had been surgically removed _castrato_ (NOT to be confused with the later definition above, who were _spandone_ by Roman definition)- men whose genitals (testicles and all or part of the penis) had been removed. In reference to Cæsar Augustus’s love of spandone as playthings and how it led to rumors about his own masculinity. > [@](#): > > Once, when he was attending a play, an actor spoke a line about a favorite eunuch beating a tamborine- _“Videsne ut Cinaedus orbem digito temperet?”_ (“Do you see how this queen’s finger beats the orb?”) (“beats the orb” meaning “governs the world”)- and the knowledgeable audience immediately glanced toward the royal box and burst into wild applause, to which Octavius bowed. {Panati 295} One thing that is known: the reason that beards were extremely fashionable among Greeks and Hebrews and other residents of the eastern Meditteranean had to do somewhat with the fact eunuchs were despised. Clean shaven men = eunuchs = weak/fey/feminine while beards = all men = powerful. There were some early depictions of Christ as a clean shaven youthful looking man but all Byzantine artists depicted him bearded due to the prevalence of eunuchs in their society and the religious desire not to confuse him with one. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/26 "2006-04-14T12:19:00Z")
That was called “getting a word in edgwise.” Just kidding, thanks to you. **Sampiro** , I have learned twice as much about the subject in one time than I’d learned in my life until now. MTF transsexuals take a testosterone suppressor like Spironalactone as part of HRT; I wonder if that’s what they mean by chemical castration. Orchiodectomy is one step on the way to sexual reassignment surgery, and may be done first separately, once one has decided that one is done with testosterone for life, then no more need for those Spiro pills. The Greek roots of the word are: orchi- ‘testicles’ ek- ‘out’ -tomy ‘cutting’. Valerie Solanas would like that… ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/27 "2006-04-14T13:52:03Z")
I meant testosterone _blocker_, not suppressant. Two different concepts, I think. With a blocker the balls still make it, but it doesn’t stick to receptors or something. Moreschi’s voice consistently fell apart on the low notes–he went off-key and croaky-- but soared beautifully on the high notes. If the practice is ever revived, textbooks on orchestration should take note of this, to avoid the low range of castrati and make them sing in their upper range. “Ave Maria” has a wide range–must be at least a twelfth, which is the range of the “Star Spangled Banner” that everyone complains about. His soprano range sounded much like a woman’s soprano. I’ve heard that castrati were prized for being able to hit the soprano notes with the power of a man’s lungs. I don’t know, maybe the primitive recording technology didn’t show the difference. Maria Callas could have blown him out of the water. That was made on a wax cylinder, right? Pretty good job of digitally cleaning up the sound. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/28 "2006-04-14T16:17:59Z")
[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] What do female dopers think of all this? Would you go for a willowy Orlando Bloom type with a soft voice, clear skin, full head of hair, a gentle disposition who can keep it up all night with no chance of accidental pregnancy? [/QUOTE] I don’t have an answer to this question, but I just wonder how “keeping it up all night” would appeal to the man. Wouldn’t it be frustrating to go and go and go and go and never … arrive? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/29 "2006-04-14T17:09:08Z")
[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] What do female dopers think of all this? Would you go for a willowy Orlando Bloom type with a soft voice, clear skin, full head of hair, a gentle disposition who can keep it up all night with no chance of accidental pregnancy? Although I suppose with the reduced sex drive, I’d be too busy curing cancer and conquering the world to concern myself with trifles the likes of you. 🆒 [/QUOTE] You’re overlooking one thing: testosterone promotes muscle growth and keeps fat down. If you keep eating like you used to you’ll soon find yourself sporting a spare tire. Even if you do cut back on the calories you’ll end up with a higher fat-to-muscle ratio, like a woman’s. The castrati, too, tended towards the pudgy. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/30 "2006-04-14T19:00:21Z")
[QUOTE=FlyingRamenMonster] You’re overlooking one thing: testosterone promotes muscle growth and keeps fat down. If you keep eating like you used to you’ll soon find yourself sporting a spare tire. [/QUOTE] And even if you diet you won’t have the lean feline Orlando Bloom body. It’ll be more feminine- with nothing to check the estrogen produced by all men your buttocks will round, you won’t develop breastesses per-se but you will have more cleavage and flab on the chest and you’ll find yourself living with a monkey on a California ranch singing songs about beating it. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/31 "2006-04-14T21:40:39Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] Not having balls would probably be it. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Yup! ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/32 "2006-04-14T22:04:45Z")
Good points [puts pants back on, scaple and vodka away], I guess it wouldn’t be all that popular with the ladies. But again, once it is done, that won’t even really be a concern any more. > [@](#): > > I don’t have an answer to this question, but I just wonder how “keeping it up all night” would appeal to the man. Wouldn’t it be frustrating to go and go and go and go and never … arrive? Well, I suppose the simple altruistic pleasure derived from satisfying completely the one I love would be enough. I’m just that kind of guy.. 😛 Actually as far as I can tell castration does not equal inability to achieve orgasm, but the wikipedia article isn’t entirely clear on this, noting only that there is a greatly reduced or eliminated sex drive. [This](http://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/CastrationEffects.html) supposed eunuuch says orgasm is still quite possible. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/33 "2006-04-14T22:08:34Z")
As far as singing is concerned, I have heard counter-tenor Daniel Taylor many times and it is hard to tell it is not a woman. So you can have the castrato effect without being castrated. I have heard him interviewed (perfectly normal male speaking voice) and he has gotten used to the fact that people are always asking if he is gay (I don’t know how his girlfriend feels about that, though). He explains that he had been a boy soprano and when his voice began to change, he was turning into a weak tenor. His voice teacher suggested developing his upper register, which is surprisingly strong (and doesn’t sound like falsetto, although physiologically it probably is). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/34 "2006-04-15T04:03:25Z")
My example of full-testosterone soprano would be Jon Anderson of Yes. Even though getting on in years, he still sounds as always like a choir boy. A somewhat hoarse choir boy. In 1979 I knew a girl who went to Pittsburg, I think, to see a Yes concert. She came back and described how a guy had leapt on the stage and tried to strangle Anderson. :eek: WTF? The Azerbaijani singer Alim Qasimov sings way up high at least an octave above middle C, but without that falsetto quality (a lack of overtones?), sounds like a full throat. His daughter Fergana Qasimova sings in the corresponding tessitura (piercingly high and intense) for a woman’s range, and whoa, her voice could shatter panes of glass and drop plaster from the ceiling. It takes considerable training and control to sustain notes in that range at full volume while still hitting the notes accurately and everything. **Sampiro** , tell us about the Khlysti! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/35 "2006-04-15T19:11:29Z")
I meant [скопцы Skoptzy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy). I _always_ get those two sects confused. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/36 "2006-04-15T20:48:24Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] When a plague of mumps caused many boys to be castrated [/quote] Why would mumps require castration? I wouldn’t call that recording haunting so much as disturbing. Maybe it’s knowing that men were actually castrated just so they could sing pretty-that’s pretty damned harsh. Oh, and **Johanna** , it’s PittsburgH. We fought long and hard to get our H back, dammit! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/37 "2006-04-15T23:58:23Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Why would mumps require castration? [/QUOTE] WAG - one of the potential side effects of mumps is a major swelling and inflammation of the testicles (I think they can also do this to the ovaries, but it’s not nearly as visible). Perhaps people thought that castration was a means to relieve this problem, or else thought castration would _avoid_ this problem (well, yeah, if your testicles are removed they won’t swell, will they?) ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/38 "2006-04-16T01:12:31Z")
i remember seeing on donahue or oprah, (eons ago, on a show on fertility, and problems there of) a set of id. twins, boys, one of whom was born with out testes. they did a transplant from the other twin, so each had one. both grew up just fine in the manly department, and both were able to have children. the one who was the recip. said he didn’t think he was having his brother’s kids, as they were id. twins; and he would have had pretty much the same dice throw geneticly. when i was watching the show i did think: “huh, i might have waited to see how twin’s voice came out”. (the surgery was done when they were rather young.) he may have had a fantastic music career! he would have been a natural, no surgery needed! ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/39 "2006-04-16T04:24:51Z")
I would assume that at least some eunuchs have been able to disconnect the orgasm, a function of the brain and nervous system, and actual ejaculation. Thus, while the pressure to release is gone, stimulation could probably get you all the way. I know there are plenty of fully functioning men who can do this. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2006, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329/40 "2006-04-16T06:30:08Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] **Sampiro** , tell us about the [changed to [скопцы Skoptzy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy)]! [/QUOTE] I’ll be glad to, but to be honest everything I know about them came from the link above so perhaps I’ll just let them click on that 🆒 . They sound fascinating though. Castration for religious reasons goes way way way way back, probably much further back than written history. Some priests in Egypt and Mesopotamia were eunuchs to encourage cleanliness and celibacy (while others had harems, go figure) and some Jewish hermits (and possibly some Essenes according to one source I read- the _extreme_ Essenes) as well as other particularly fiery fringe religionists of other times and eras who sought to detach themselves by detaching he aggies. It turned up again among some of the separatist fanatics of the Middle Ages (including some of the Cathars- not all, but the more extreme, for they didn’t believe in procreation [the word ‘bugger’ comes indirectly from them because according to possibly dubious sources they preferred anal sex, which was associated with _Bulgars_, to intercourse as birth control and the word became corrupted). There was a very small Protestant doomsday sect in Europe during the 30 Years War era who did likewise but I can’t remember their name and it was a rumor about Isaac Newton (probably false, though it is known that he was extremely proud of his virginity). Usually it’s on the individual basis. Somebody I’ve mentioned on the boards before is one of the most interesting lunatics in American Civil War history, [Thomas “Boston” Corbett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Corbett). He was a “mad hatter” (the mercury) before the Civil War who was convinced that his love of prostitutes caused his wife to die in childbirth, so he castrated himself. He was later a prisoner at Andersonville, emerged even more disturbed and fanatically religious, and when his company was the group to capture John Wilkes Booth in Garrett’s barn Corbett disobeyed a direct order by fatally shooting booth, claiming the voice of God told him to do so. He was brought up for a court martial but pardoned and given a medal and cash award by Edwin Stanton (who was not a eunuch but did share a bedroom with his dead daughter for a couple of years). (Irrelevant to eunuchs but interesting nonetheless if only to me: over the years a number of men claiming to be John Wilkes Booth [having survived the barn] materialized, but only a couple were ever given credence; one was a man in the midwest in the 1890s who knew quite a few facts that were dead-on about the last night of Booth’s life [which of course he claimed to have escaped] and could quote Shakespeare at length and had a general physical resemblance to Booth if he were 30 years older and the like— there is a well done article that to me established that this man was not in fact Booth but Boston Corbett, hopelessly mad [he escaped from a Topeka insane asylum in the 1880s and vanished from history] and having conflated himself and his victim). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eunuchs/352329.md?page=3)