# EURO 2012 Poland/Ukraine \[OPEN SPOILERS\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 2, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883 "2012-06-02T18:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/281 "2012-06-19T14:25:32Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Back to last night’s games, and I wonder exactly why the Spanish goal wasn’t ruled out for offside. I found a handy animated GIF [here](http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1192245/offsides.gif). When Fabregas first passes the ball to Iniesta (first freeze frame), Iniesta is onside but Navas (who went on to score) is clearly in an offside position). Fair enough he is not “active” at this point, but surely this is one passage of play and he is gaining an advantage by being in an offside position when the ball is played through? > > By the time Iniesta passes the ball to Navas (second freeze frame), Navas is not offside because he is behind the ball, but I wonder why the linesman didn’t flag him for his earlier offside position as soon as he became an active participant in the move? I find that annoying as well. The official explanation is indeed that Navas was initially “passive offside”. But that doesn’t make sense, because the Croat keeper has to deal with both players. It’s one of the controversial aspects of the offside-rule. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/282 "2012-06-19T14:28:50Z")
The only situation which I could accept as “passive offside” would be when a player of the attacking team is standing near the corner flag, tying his shoe laces. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/283 "2012-06-19T14:30:59Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I find that annoying as well. The official explanation is indeed that Navas was initially “passive offside”. But that doesn’t make sense, because the Croat keeper has to deal with both players. Alternatively, you could say that the Croatian keeper has to deal with two players because the Croat defence has failed to deal with them, under the rules of the game. If they’re still playing to the old offside rule, more fool them. Basically these days it’s a simple “no forward pass” rule, with some caveats. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/284 "2012-06-19T15:14:50Z")
I understand the passive offside rule, but I’d like to see at least 1 more tweak to it. If a player is offside, passively or actively, and in the penalty area, he should be ruled offside no matter what. It sure seems to me that Cesc had his choice of setting up Navas or Iniesta up until the moment the ball left his foot, and the gk had to deal with them both. And if they can’t make that tweak, then just say you have to be onside when the ball is played. Also, I think it was Jelavic who was being strongly held by either Pique or Ramos on a late corner (still 0-0 at the time). I’ve seen penalties given for less, but not much was said about it. Add in the non-call against Ramos for his challenge on Mandzukic, and Spain really dodged some bullets. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/285 "2012-06-19T16:10:36Z")
Tough match, but wasn’t expecting less – Croatia, at times, also had Italy against the ropes. Can’t simply waltz though the field on reputation alone & let’s not for get that a short six years ago, we wouldn’t have been pleased to reach the 1/4ers on blood, sweat & tears alone, whereas now, many a Spanish fan want to win everything w/out getting our unis dirty\*. Neither side did much till news came of Italy’s score, that’s when the Croats tried pushing forward and did so on a couple of occasions, that were, for La Furia fans, heart-stopping. Iker’s surreal reflex save from Rakitic’s header was probably the game changer. Aside from that, yes some questionable refereeing, with PK’s ignored on both boxes – I thought Ramos’ tackle was just outside the box, but still worth a card & a foul. Worth noting VDB wasn’t at his mental sharpest last night, for it made no sense to bring in Navas, a winger known for his blind crosses into the box – while taking, Torres, our only true forward out of the game. Who was he supposed to cross for? 1.67 Iniesta? 1.70 Xavi? 1.70 Silva? 😕 All the while we have towering Llorente (1.95) on the bench for just such occasions. At the end, Cesc pulled a rabbit out of his hat that allowed us to go through first…but the team looked both tired & very predictable, with little to no depth in their game. England, France or even Ukraine if they go through, all have more than a chance against this Spanish squad. But a lot can change from one match to the next…so until we’re on the plane home, I trust this bunch and I think we’ll see a different side come Saturday. \*FWLIW, I love the new light blue shirts w/the navy shorts. Kit rocked, the team, didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/286 "2012-06-19T16:20:58Z")
When Navas first came on, I shared your thoughts (Torres out for Navas?!), but he seemed to add immediate width, and I figured then Iniesta, Cesc/Silva (don’t remember if Navas was on before Cesc or not), or even Pique could pop up in surprise. But by the last 10 minutes, Navas was mostly playing in the box, too, and that width had disappeared. Then again, by that point Croatia had 3 stikers on, so they may have forced Spain’s hand to play deeper to abandon the plan. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/287 "2012-06-19T16:29:05Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > But Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom and a team from Northern Ireland takes part in international competitions (at least in football, not in water polo or chess). That still doesn’t explain why they don’t say “Ireland” and “Northern Ireland” as everyone else does. And I still don’t see how NI being part of the UK makes a difference. > [@Donnerwetter](#): > > So basically, the term “Republic”, when used somewhere in the British Isles, has become synonymous with the Republic of Ireland. Not in my experience. > [@Colophon](#): > > While it’s quite common to use “the Republic” as shorthand in an Irish context, it is a bit odd. What’s even odder is using the abbreviation “REP” on the scoreboard in the corner of the screen, rather than the more obvious “IRE”. Yeah you’re right, I noticed that but then forgot about it again. It seems like the BBC is doing it deliberately and has told the commentators and pundits to refer to Ireland as “The Republic”. Again, the only reason I can think of for this is because some people in Northern Ireland might prefer it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/288 "2012-06-19T16:34:29Z")
\*Cesc came in for Silva about 6/8 minutes later than Navas did – and while you are right that Navas abandoned his wing position towards the end, it was simply bizarre to watch him get deep into the end-line only to _pass back_ looking for the Spanish mids playing in their usual positions. Last point, and you’ve already made it: we have the players to widen the game & when a team is as closed down the middle as Croatia was – most time Xavi & Iniesta had three players closing them down, and Silva was also slanted towards the middle – you use them: Navas, Mata\* and/or Pedro\* can all do that. Add Llorente\* or Negredo if Torres is ineffective, and the team takes on a whole new look. \*None of the three have played a minute yet…WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/289 "2012-06-19T18:09:42Z")
Getting excited now. What does England have to do to win the group? Obviously if they get more points than France they’ll win, but I’m expecting both England and France to win. If England wins by one more goal than France and both sides have the same points and goal difference, what happens then? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/290 "2012-06-19T18:16:16Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Getting excited now. What does England have to do to win the group? Obviously if they get more points than France they’ll win, but I’m expecting both England and France to win. If England wins by one more goal than France and both sides have the same points and goal difference, what happens then? England win the group due to having scored more goals than France. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/291 "2012-06-19T18:16:22Z")
If everything else is even, I believe it then goes to FIFA rankings. That is a tiebreaker for a potential 3-way tie. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/292 "2012-06-19T18:36:27Z")
> [@mkecane](#): > > If everything else is even, I believe it then goes to FIFA rankings. That is a tiebreaker for a potential 3-way tie. Yes, and England would be first in this case. For this tiebreaker to come up, England must win 2-0 and France must win 3-2. Check that - if France loses 3-1 and England loses 1-0, then this tiebreaker would be used as well. France would be out and England would be second in the group. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/293 "2012-06-19T18:44:13Z")
Check that again :). Those don’t have to be the exact scores; the important thing is that the two teams end up level on goal difference and goals scored. England winning 3-1 and France winning 4-3 would work as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/294 "2012-06-19T18:57:06Z")
Hopefully this is just premature but so far I’m nervous. Ukraine have had all the chances so far and every England attack seems to fail due to some mistake. On the hand those attacks seemed like they could be very promising if only they _didn’t_ make a dumb mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/295 "2012-06-19T19:04:57Z")
England looks terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Indian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@Indian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/296 "2012-06-19T19:12:14Z")
25 minutes into game. No great moves from England. Wasted corner kick also. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/297 "2012-06-19T19:39:21Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > England looks terrible. England looks the same as it did this morning. England _look_ terrible, though, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/298 "2012-06-19T19:53:30Z")
Rooney 1-0. Amazed he dares to get his head to the ball with that thatch job on his scalp. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/299 "2012-06-19T19:56:43Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > England looks the same as it did this morning. England _look_ terrible, though, I agree. Actually in London the weather was much nicer this morning. And both “look” and “looks” are correct English. I believe “look” is more common in British English and “looks” more common in American English, but I prefer “looks”. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883/300 "2012-06-19T19:58:13Z")
I’m pleased to note that the Official Pukka Pies England Supporters Band have finally learned a new tune. Unfortunately it’s that Seven Nation Army riff that we’re all already sick of hearing after every goal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euro-2012-poland-ukraine-open-spoilers/623883.md?page=16)